Steve It has been a while since I read this book. I remember thinking that Putin must use it as his manual for his "democracy". Machiavelli would have no problem with Putin's poisoning of a political dissenter in London for his personal gain.

anon While it is convenient for us living in the US to demonize him, for he acts against US interests, what Putin has done for Russia has been to remove the bloodsucking and traitorous oligarchs from power. Yes, he is antidemocratic, even totalitarian, but a country like Russia, freshly introduced to democracy and heavily manipulated from abroad was in fact in need of such strong-arm. Now, what some superpower does to achieve our ends (not its, ours, since I can vote and haven't done enough to change things, same as the rest of the voting population) can be called the genuine Machiavellian intrigue and manipulation. So before you demonize Putin, understand why he does what he does. He is no Mao.

Steve anon, I realize that the Russian political environment is MUCH different than that of the political environment in the United States. I also have many Russian friends who have told me something along the lines of what you just said. It is true, and is very visible to this day, that the resources of the former Soviet Union were sold FAR below market price to privileged people. This created a billionaire class overnight, while leaving the rest of the population to fend for themselves amid a financial collapse. What concerns me is the fact that anyone critical of Putin seems to mysteriously die. He is not commanding a traditional coup, but is reserving more and more powers for himself, very slowly. Putin is pulling the country closer and closer toward the line that separates a dictatorship from a democracy. I just hope the average Russian people are not the ones left holding the bag, as they were several times in the past.

Jeb

The “necessary” part implies a certain morality, a sense of right and wrong

Since when? Machiavellian has been synonymous with amoral pragmatism for centuries. Anon, Putin acts for Putin, not Russia, any benefit Russia may or may not experience is secondary.

anon fyi: same anon as before, too many websites to become members of, sorry Steve, I agree with you in that he is slowly becoming a dictator. My point is that he does what he does so blatantly that it is hardly Machiavellian. Otoh, the IMF-run economic takeover of Russia, the US promises (by Bush1) that there will be no NATO expansion to achieve dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and then going back on that word, the slow but steady takeover of FSU states.. all Machiavellian. Jeb, That is your pov, I respect it, but disagree with it. He could have looted like the rest and ran, but he is still at work. True, it is slowly becoming a dictatorship but it is a time that Russia faces extinction (male population dwindling, youth without prospects and hope, weakened military, very weak economy) and 100 years from now, imho, he will be hailed a hero who resorted to ugly means to achieve his end. Anyhow, my point was that the Western manipulation of Russia is Machiavellian, and Putin is transparent.

Steve anon, I am not singling out Putin in particular for being the only example of this. I was just pointing out that he is getting closer and closer to the dictatorship mentality. You are correct, in the case of politics he is very blatant and makes no attempt to conceal his views. I was referring to the specific instances when dissenters (usually journalists) were killed because of their opposition. I was not making a suggestion either way to his effectiveness. Europe (and America) in general needs politicians that will take a strong stand for what is right for their country instead of continuing their trend of appeasement. I only get concerned when members of the press begin to be silenced, especially violently. That action in itself was the only one I was describing as Machiavellian, sorry if I was not more clear.

anon (still the same coward anon) Steve, Were you originally referring to the assassination of the former intelligence officer by radioactive poison? On that, and what he does to journalists singing tunes other than his partly line, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Thank you for pointing that out.