2012 May 22 |
 |
http://www.theatlanticright.com/2009/06/22/lets-have-a-real-health-care-debate/
0
0
  |   78 comments

0787997528Using highly questionable data sampling, the New York Times today self-righteously proclaimed majority support for a plan for a government-provided health insurance plan that, using the inherent ability of the government to subsidize itself and punish its competition, would inevitably devolve into a single-payer government health care system.   And this sort of rhetorical short-circuiting of the process of debate and analysis promises to seriously damage our ability to craft serious health care reforms.

This stridently dishonest approach has been eagerly embraced by the ideologues of the left, who prefer slogans to debate.  A characteristic example is TMV’s Kathy Kattenburg, with her no-discussion-tolerated demand “We Need Single-Payer Public Health Care — NOW“.  Kattenburg’s post does identify a legitimate problem that requires reform (the practice of “rescission” — the arbitrary denial of coverage using flimsy and even dishonest excuses), but its willingness to only consider one possible solution and its intolerance for any discussion of problems or alternatives makes it a dangerous diktat rather than a progressive proposal.  (Unfortunately, the general TMV policy of refusing to even respond to critics exacerbates the problem — one can peruse TMV threads essentially forever without finding an example of its authors seriously engaging a single critic.  While its across-the-board application to all issues at TMV is not shared everywhere, this no-dissent-allowed practice is tragically quite common specifically among advocates of single-payer health care.  Like Kattenburg, they tend to view their proposals as good-versus-evil rather than as exercises in coming up with pragmatically workable solutions to real-world problems.)

If single-payer health care were the nirvana its advocates claim it to be, this wouldn’t be a serious problem.  But continuing experience in Canada, for example, shows that serious problems with availability and rationing in critical care areas such as cancer treatments persist in single-payer systems.  The hostility to debate and discussion among single-payer advocates like Kattenburg is thus revealed as more than simply self-righteous arrogance — it is a serious threat to the viability of a future post-reform system.  Refusing to discuss potential problems may marginalize and disempower opposition, but it will not prevent those problems from occurring in reality.  And the economic logic that causes rationing is impervious to proclamations from high atop a moral white horse:  Providers in a single-payer system can only expect to receive whatever the government’s political process deems an “appropriate” payment.  Since those payment levels will inevitably remain fixated solely on present costs, there is no room left to invest for the future.  As a result, investment in new equipment and technology is slow and unreliable and, as a result, available capacity inevitably lags behind demand.  The outcome in the end is that cancer patients and other patients who would benefit from immediate treatment have to wait in line and, inevitably, some of them die while waiting.

But, of course, such matters are of little interest to self-righteous purists like Kattenburg.  All that matters to them is demonizing the other side enough to score an easy rhetorical “win” before blithely moving on to the next item on their infinite list of political vendettas.  Actually making the system work is Somebody Else’s Problem.  And, after all, any problems that do crop up can always be blamed on Republicans, conservatives, or “the rich”.  A big advantage of refusing to even talk to your critics is that you can continue that same practice to evade accountability later on as well.

Fortunately, not everyone embraces this vicious and irresponsible approach.  Moderate Democrats in the Senate are eschewing the temptations of the extreme purists and are trying to craft a compromise that might address some of the legitimate concerns about single-payer health care.  Whether such proposals can gain steam in spite of the dogmatism of the purists remains to be seen, but the willingness of pragmatist liberals like Justin Gardner at Donklephant to actually recognize and discuss legitimate concerns about purist approaches to health care reform is a very hopeful sign.

The bottom line is that the choice is entirely in the hands of liberals.  Partisan Democrats dominate the entire political playing field, from the Congress to the elite media to the blogosphere.  If they choose to embrace the intolerant purism of their Kathy Kattenburgs, then Americans may have little more to look forward to than a dreary march to technological stagation, rationing, and the decreased quality of care that results from decreased timeliness of care.  The fact that enlightened liberals will have “won” over evil insurance companies will be of little comfort to the breast cancer patients who see their tumors metastitize while they linger on the waiting list for radiation and chemotherapy treatments.  But if they instead adopt the willingness to compromise of Senator Kent Conrad and Donklephant’s Justin Gardner, a centrist consensus might just be possible.

UPDATE: Newshoggers’ Ron Beasley is even more direct in rejecting all compromise and all debate in favor of a Manichean crusade against “the Oligarchs”:

And what does he need to do?
1. Go to the nation
2. Be LBJ. So far, Lyndon Johnson has been the only president to defeat American Medical Association and the rest of the medical-industrial complex.
3. Forget the Republicans. Forget bipartisanship.
4. Insist on a real public option. It’s the lynchpin of universal health care.
5. Demand that taxes be raised on the wealthy to ensure that all Americans get affordable health care.
6. Put everything else on hold. As important as they are, your other agenda items — financial reform, home mortgage mitigation, cap-and-trade legislation — pale in significance relative to universal health care.

It is fascinating to behold the shameless hypocrisy here. Leftist purists are using the exact same kind of good-versus-evil rhetoric that they excoriated George W. Bush for using regarding the threat of terrorism. Apparently, those who would blow up huge buildings in the pursuit of an extreme religious ideology are no where near as threatening as “the Oligarchs”, eh, Ron?

But even if we “get” those nasty “Oligarchs” and put them up against the financial wall, Ron, the ones who really pay the price may be the cancer patients who must wait months or years for their treatment due to rationing. Why do you refuse to even debate the issue?

I guess your campaign of rhetorical and financial vengeance must be important enough to sacrifice their lives in the process?

UPDATE 2: In a move that is hyperbolic even by their standards, FireDogLake compares the campaign for health care reform to the fight against slavery. The same lot who used to complain about the Bush administration’s rhetorical excesses is showing that Rumsfeld and Cheney can’t hold a candle to them. Next up: Anyone who questions single-payer health care is a Nazi terrorist.

UPDATE 6/22: Kathy Kattenburg has responded with a respectful post at TMV. (It is a hopeful sign that at least some at TMV may be willing to respond to critics.) Unfortunately, her response continues to evade key points of contention, including the propensity of many public-health-care advocates to immediately reject all proposals for compromise (Paul Krugman adds his voice to the purist chorus today) and the problem of how to handle rationing and equipment-investment problems that occur in publicly-funded systems like Canada’s. Hopefully, at least some on the left side of this issue are willing to sustain a debate as it moves into details.

UPDATE 6/22 5pm: Well, Kathy Kattenburg’s respectfulness didn’t manage to last the day before she returned to the purist approach of misrepresenting and demonizing all opposition. This is the dysfunction that seems likely to continue to plague the health care debate in this country — self-righteous purists who believe in win-at-all-costs actively destroying debate from the left and know-nothing purists refusing to even offer debate from the far right. Meanwhile, the moderate majority stuck in the middle can look forward to paying the higher tax bills for a poorly designed system built on ideology rather than analysis.

tags  
|
  1. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96782
    Jason Arvak Well, Jeb, assuming that ALL critics have bad intentions that will never be satisfied is certainly a popular method among liberals these days of avoiding dealing with ALL criticism, but I don't think such assumptions should form the basis of a healthy policy development process.
  2. Posted by Kastanj
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96784
    Kastanj "Even your hope for success is motivated by a desire to prevent partisan damage to Democrats rather than health for Americans." If you want to fill in the blanks any way you want I don't have any reason to stop you. When i say that the bill won't explode in their faces due to expert input, am I not also saying that the bill won't be lacking in efficiency and stability? You can't have democrat gains here without a successful reform. "And if I refused or if I missed a test, would I be committing a crime?" No, but you might be in line for some sort of fine, provided there is a collective option. After all, you can't expect people to chip in for your HC unless you are ready to check if your skin won't fall off next year at a great cost for all other tax payers. Here in Sweden no one is forced to undergo anything under the threat of a fine. There is no duty involved, and I'm not sure of any other country with collective paying for the collective HC that demands it. I guess the idea is that everyone are forced to get insurance considering the bill is footed by them and other tax payers. Considering this system cannot be opted out of, I don't think the government should impose too much control on people to ensure healthiness. The fact that Americans in general munch too much sodium, sugar and anti-depressants is related to HC and its costs, but if you can't choose whether to have others pay for you or not, the expectations from the government on you to stay healthy or suffer repercussions should not be higher than in any other nation with a similar system. In the current system your insurance premium goes up by all numbers of factors, so your lifestyle choices and other circumstances already affect you negatively - you are punished for being more probable to be costly in the future. I don't think a system where everybody have to get HC insurance will be that attractive if you need to visit a proctologist much more often if your BMI isn't up to snuff. Choosing one punitive life-coach for another is not a choice people should have to make. No one wants to be unhealthy after all, but it all accumulates. I'm so thin I have to jog around in the shower in order to get wet, and I don't have any problem paying to have some hypothetical obese homophobe racist get his problems sorted out, and AFAIK he doesn't have to pay extra because of his destructive lifestyle. One person could be sitting at home, eating chips and being safe, while the person driving to the gym finds his car wrapped around a streetlight with him thrown out the windshield. Should the fitness expert have to pay more because he drives to places? No, not even if he only drives short distances. Beyond the blatant, clear-cut and logical cases, you can't put human behavior in a mathematical function and get a fair set of taxes for each person. Even if the government abstains from punishing people who make bad choices (people already have to pay taxes in order to provide for people who make bad choices regarding their own health, mostly because they lack insurance) there is still the fact that the government might get the idea that punishing some goods and foods will not only bring in more money but will also lower HC costs. Well, there are certain impositions that make sense financially and medicinally, but that is not a good rationale for banning things. I guess that is an important concern - what will happen when the government has a financial stake in keeping people from the hospitals? Could we like, ban the government from banning or putting new taxes on things?
  3. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96785
    Jason Arvak
    You can’t have democrat gains here without a successful reform.
    The only possible inference to take from your repetition of this is that you see successful health care reform not as an end in itself but as mere means to the greater end of "democrat [sic] gains". That's my whole point -- that I think your priorities are sickly twisted.
    No, but you might be in line for some sort of fine, provided there is a collective option.
    And the authoritarian underpinnings of the left reveal themselves yet again. Next up: Mandatory morning exercises for everyone, monitored by the government through your in-home telescreen. And mandatory weekly blood tests to ensure that no one consumes too much sodium. It's all for your own good, of course! I see now why you were avoiding discussing any specifics beyond mere partisan gaming -- once your preferences are revealed, anyone who cares even a little bit about personal privacy and freedom will be repelled by your agenda.
  4. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96787
    Jeb
    one of the advantages to creating a very small public plan is that it would not compete with private coverage
    I don't see that added competition as a bug.
    You suggest the Dutch model as an alternative. Apparantly it does not have a direct public plan. However, according to the WHO, the Dutch system is 62 percent government funded, which sounds quite high.
    The WHO has our contribution at between 45% and 54% if memory serves. In that context 62% isn't such a high level.
    As you have pointed out, health care in the U.S. is considered to be relatively costly. Significantly increasing the ratio of government funding to private funding is very likely to either raise the per capita costs even more or require rationing.
    What evidence is there that higher government contribution to health care costs increases per capita costs. That every industrialized nation has a greater % of government contribution and yet all pay far less and that all but Luxembourg have a slower rate of growth in costs seems to be evidence to the contrary. Re: rationing, We already have rationing based on ability to pay.
    the tax exclusion for employer provided health insurance also distorts the market in that it leads to mismatches - e.g., single professionals in prime health are given the same “cadillac” plans are their married-with-children or middle-aged coworkers.
    Without this 'distortion' (risk spreading) those middle-aged and older workers would be quickly priced out of the market. If we are to approach universal care there must be more rather than less spreading of risk.
    Or, are you proposing a complete overhaul?
    That would be my preference, but it will not happen. Given that incremental change is all we will get, the French model might be a better fit. We are not all that far from the French model as it is.
    Another issue with the Dutch system is that it mandates coverage. In addition to being simply un-American,
    No more than mandated car insurance.
    that would only exacerbate the cost problems.
    Only in so far as mandates can increase demand by bringing in the previously uninsured.
    Then, on top of that, the government would pay for everyone to take up to 2 annual visits to a general practitioner, mostly to screen for preventable illnesses.
    and if the sceening(s) came back positive? What then for the twenty something that has chosen to forgo coverage? Now they have a pre-existing condition and no insurance company will have them.
    We really should reform the tax exclusion, but if we were to do that, we should offer a individual tax exclusion or credit to all qualifying taxpayers. Then, from a regulatory p.o.v. we could roughly copy the Dutch
    That would also require subsidies to those who could not afford coverage. The Dutch minimums do not seem exorbitant to me.
    There is also danger of mandates from the opposition direction from rationing, Patrick. Would the government order me to go to the doctor to receive preventative tests, like a colonoscopy? And if I refused or if I missed a test, would I be committing a crime? Would I be subject to loss of all coverage?...
    Look to the systems that have been proposed as models (France, Germany, the Netherlands) and at the proposed systems on the table now (Obama's and those of the congressional dems). The answer to your hypotheticals in all of those cases is no.
  5. Posted by Kastanj
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96793
    Kastanj "And the authoritarian underpinnings of the left reveal themselves yet again." Yeah, ignore the entire rest of my post while you are at it. If they want to give you a *free* check-up to see if there is anything bad brewing inside of you that could be prevented (such as breast cancer) it is not authoritarian to ask someone to allow doctors to investigate whether you might suddenly become a huge fiscal drain in the future, if you go unchecked. So I get to be chewed out for saddling all of the GOP with a resistance to the public option but I am a representative for the *entire* left? You are way too enamored with your own armchair theorizing. "Next up: Mandatory morning exercises for everyone, monitored by the government through your in-home telescreen. And mandatory weekly blood tests to ensure that no one consumes too much sodium." Don't forget the nanomachines we put in the polio vaccinations and the agreement with the Betelgeusians to sell of all neocons as slave labor...
  6. Posted by Kastanj
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96795
    Kastanj When everybody share the same costs, risks and commons, it is not irrational to demand people to come in for *free* to see if there is anything preventable that would not only cost all fellow citizens a lot more in the future if you were left unattended, but would also cause more suffering and risks for you. Having your car checked off and scrutinized is a hassle, but it is mandatory for a reason, and you are punished if you drive around without being having your car green-lighted for safety concerns. There is no reason to think the US government will force any check-ups on citizens anyway, but even if this is the case it is not so sinister and authoritarian considering the shared costs (it would be more costly for everybody very soon if people didn't have to have their cars okayed by mechanics).
  7. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96800
    Jeb
    Well, Jeb, assuming that ALL critics have bad intentions that will never be satisfied is certainly a popular method among liberals these days of avoiding dealing with ALL criticism
    Please stop misrepresenting what I have said. I have responded to you point by point and have quoted you directly rather than misrepresenting what you have said. It would be appreciated if you would extend the same courtesy. Now again what I said was,
    As I said I have not inherent objection, but doubt that it will uncover any new information or meaningfully shift policy. I also am near certain that regardless of how much time is spent and research done the chorus calling for more time and study will not substantially diminish.
    I have seen nothing to make me think this analysis is incorrect. Do you really think that most of those calling for delay now would not be calling for delay a year from now? or a year from then?
  8. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96801
    Jason Arvak I stand behind what I said -- you seem to be resisting the imperative to be comprehensive and methodical in approaching health care reform because you PRESUME that all the critics of health care reform are ill-intentioned and impossible to satisfy and therefore you conclude that any time taken to be careful would merely be coopted as an excuse for indefinite delay. I don't think I misrepresented what you said at all, as your rhetorical questions reinforce my interpretation. Please explain how I did so.
  9. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96806
    Patrick Glenn Jeb, I'm trying to learn how to use the block quotes, but I'm not yet ready to use multiple blocks in one comment . . . Most economists anticipate that a susidized, competitive public plan will drive private insurers out of the market. As per a June 10, 2009 NYT article, the A.M.A. opposed creating a public health insurance option for non-disabled individuals under age 65 because it would raise costs while restricting patient choice as private insurers went by the wayside. If we create a competitive public plan, eventually American consumers, like the French, will have the option of purchasing private "boutique" supplemental plans, but the baseline packages will be provided mostly/entirely by public plans. At that point, the government is in the position of having to centrally plan the health care system because there is no longer a market setting prices. Not only would that lead to a system failure; it would have very negative ramifications in terms of individual liberties, personal responsibility, government accountability, civic activities, etc. Come to think of it, I wonder what would happen to the vaunted European health care systems if there is no longer the huge U.S. market setting some sort of price targets, even if it's happening now from across the Atlantic. I realize that the current U.S. health care system functions within what is only nominally a private market, which is distorted by various policy inputs, but if the U.S. system were to become unmoored from market pricing mechanisms altogether, who knows what will happen. The U.S. has almost 1/4 of the world's GDP. The "Eurozone" accounts for almost another 1/4. Perhaps one of the reasons that the E.U. countries have been anxious about the recent direction of American economic policy is that the U.S. market obviously plays a central role in setting world market prices. Evidence that higher government contribution to health care costs increases per capita costs? That's a fair challenge, which is unfortunately not as easily overcome as I wish it were. Government can be quite efficient in the short run. Keep in mind also that, in 21st century "corporatist" capitalism, it can be very difficult to untangle the state from the private market. Likewise, I think many proposals to "reform" health care tangles them up as well. I did notice that you try to have it both ways by arguing that we should not worry about reaching Dutch levels of public funding (62 percent) because we're almost there now (55 - 60 percent); then you then turn around and argue that every industrialized nation has a greater percent of government contribution and yet all pay far less for health care. What, greater by 5 - 10 percent? Are we to assume that slightly increasing our public funding component will enable the U.S. health care system to pay FAR less to get even more performance? More likely, you're suggesting that our current public investments are not well spent. I agree, but maybe you can see why I might be skeptical that increasing public funding will necessarily be an improvement. If the government policy has hitherto butchered things as badly as you have described, why should we now trust government to get it right? Not only that, how will incrementally layering more government "fixes" onto the previous "fixes" result in a better system? I happen to believe that if you remove the non-relevant variables, the U.S. health system performs as one of the best in the world. The big underlying cost drivers cannot be corrected by the market or by policy: aging population, longer average life expectancy, sky high expectations, the young spending so many years in the educational system instead of paying into the "system," etc. If the U.S. had a more true market-oriented system, the rising costs would be less of a problem; however, fewer people could afford access to life saving treatments (although not as many as you think). We do not, and should not, treat healthcare as we do other services and commodities. So, I would never suggest that we go back to a "sink or swim" approach. I am suggesting that existing government policies contribute to the rising costs, whether they are packaged as a "public plan" or not. Could we "fix" some of the current messes and inefficiencies by shifting to a mostly public system? To a degree, yes. But we have to be careful about what the precedents set today will mean 25 - 50 years down the road. Historically, heavily centralized governments often had a knack for streamlining things and getting the trains to run on time. If you think a relatively free market can be cruel, brother you 'aint see nothing yet. Indeed, I think you underestimate the implications of government rationing when you state that "we already have rationing based on ability to pay." Today, many families have to make tough, anguished, even heartbreaking choices about health care. Under rationing, a government bureaucrat or computer will make the choices that break the hearts of families and, in the process, the government keeps getting bigger and less accountable.
  10. Posted by Doomed
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96807
    Doomed I think I have a solution. A 20 percent VAT whose money goes directly to healthcare run by the government. The government then purchases health care from Insurance companies. 100 percent free and 100 percent paid. Employers are freed of the responsibility of paying for health care. This freed up money is then used to stimulate new jobs. Americans do not have to pay for health care but are required to pay a 25 percent VAT on everything. The taxes on the rich are raised by 12 percent. This money is used to balance the budget and pay down the debt. AT the end of 13 years the debt is retired.
  11. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96815
    Jeb
    I did notice that you try to have it both ways by arguing that we should not worry about reaching Dutch levels of public funding (62 percent) because we’re almost there now (55 - 60 percent); then you then turn around and argue that every industrialized nation has a greater percent of government contribution and yet all pay far less for health care.
    I was offering a piece of evidence counter to the assertion that increased government contribution necessarily equates to higher per capita health care costs. The government share in the US is in the neighborhood of 45-55% and the EU nations are generally in the range of 60-80%. The Netherlands is on the lower end of that spectrum. We are talking about an increase of 10-15% up to in the neighborhood of 60% government contribution to the US health care system. The gap is there, but it is not near so large as most on both sides of the debate pretend. If one were to listen to the talking heads on the subject it would seem that we have a market system in America and we are talking about socializing it. In truth the contrast is much less stark. We have a hybrid system with near parity in contributions from public and private sources and are talking about increasing the public contribution by 10-15%. I am not trying to have it both ways I am pointing out that while there are differences between our model and the European models the differences, particularly to the French model, are not nearly so great as they are made out to be.
    Are we to assume that slightly increasing our public funding component will enable the U.S. health care system to pay FAR less to get even more performance?
    No. I think that we can cover more people and that there is considerable potential for administrative savings. Looking at admin costs in the various systems, I would guess that potential savings are in the 10-15% range. By way of comparison, tort reform has a potential savings in the neighborhood of 5-10%. I am participating in multiple conversations and am not certain at this point what I said where, but I believe I made that clear either in this thread or in another on this site, if not my apologies.
    More likely, you’re suggesting that our current public investments are not well spent.
    That was not what I was saying, though the moneys could be spent better*. I am saying that we have a haphazzard patchwork approach rather than a unified whole. * This is equally true of HMOs, so I don't see it as a distinguishing feature.
    Indeed, I think you underestimate the implications of government rationing when you state that “we already have rationing based on ability to pay.”
    We currently have ~13% of the population (~40 million) uninsured, most of those because they cannot afford insurance. These people are effectively rationed out of most common medical care and certainly out of joint replacement surgeries and other treatments that are pointed to as rationing boondoggles in the UK and Canada. We are able to have relatively shorter waits because those who cannot pay are rationed out of the system. If we were to institute a single payer system like that in the UK or Canada (virtually impossible in the US) might there be rationing by bureaucrats? Certainly. Would that rationing be more restrictive to more people than or current price and HMO denial scheme? Who knows.
  12. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96819
    Jeb
    Jeb, I’m trying to learn how to use the block quotes, but I’m not yet ready to use multiple blocks in one comment
    blockquotes just requite the tag blockquote within the and /blockquote within the carats to close the tag. Bold requires strong and /strong respectively within the carats. It is easy to miss a close tag as you can see from my earlier comment. It would be nice if they included a preview option here so we could check for simple errors.
  13. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96820
    Jeb
    The big underlying cost drivers cannot be corrected by the market or by policy
    I think that restricted supply is among the largest cost drivers and it can be corrected or at least mitigated by policies directed at increasing supply of doctors and nurses, coupled with increased responsibilities for nurses. This is an issue that neither party seems willing to tackle. The only reason I can think of is fear of going up against the AMA, though I would love to here a different hypothesis.
  14. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96821
    Jeb
    you seem to be resisting the imperative to be comprehensive and methodical in approaching health care reform because you PRESUME that all the critics of health care reform are ill-intentioned and impossible to satisfy and therefore you conclude that any time taken to be careful would merely be coopted as an excuse for indefinite delay
    No. 1) I have not to this point used ALL either explicitly or implicitly in reference to any group. You added those words not me. It is not an honest characterization of what I stated. 2) I do not accept that the process over the past 15 years has not been comprehensive and methodical. 3) I think that yet another fact finding commission will accomplish exactly what most fact finding commissions accomplish, namely nothing. I also think that it will have minimal effect on any eventual legislation and minimal effect on public perception of any eventual legislation. I don't doubt that some are sincere in their desire to see a commission help improve the process, but I also have little doubt that those who are leading the Republican party in Washington will seize upon this as yet another delaying tactic and even if it is agreed to there will be some other excuse for delay immediately following, and yet another after that until they are back in power and can simply shelve it again as it has been shelved since 1993. I also have virtually no doubt that if there is a commission those who disagree with its findings will immediately tar it as illegitimate and argue that its results should be ignored. As I have said before I am not opposed in principle to a commission. It is possible that it could add a greater perception of legitimacy to the process. I simply don't think that it will add anything more than that to the process. A question for you Jason. Why do you think it is that comprehensive health care reform has not been addressed in any meaningful way in congress since the mid 90s? Or do you think it has been meaningfully addressed? If so, when and how?
  15. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96823
    Jason Arvak
    Why do you think it is that comprehensive health care reform has not been addressed in any meaningful way in congress since the mid 90s?
    The application of the theoretical policy frameworks to the specific current demographic, financial, and economic situation. None of these sets of data from 1993 could be useful. Also, medical technology and treatment standards have not been static for the last 15 or even the last 5 years. I also do not agree that the compilations of activist groups over the last 15 years should simply be presumed to be complete, accurate, and unbiased. It is necessary to submit these to a formal policy development process rather than trying to shortcut the process simply because those activists are ideologically congenial to the political party currently in power. I'm not suggesting a "fact finding commission" (if you are going to be hypersensitive about adding words, perhaps you should not in the very same message be adding words), but rather a full-fledged policy development process. Health care reform IS going to happen at this point, regardless of whether we presume the evil intentions of Republican critics. Our choice is how to best do it. And my argument is that artificially rushing the process simply to pander to purists OR out of paranoia about powerless Republicans is a really dangerous course of action.
  16. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96824
    Patrick Glenn Jeb: in theory, policies that aim to increase supply of doctors and nurses would be beneficial and widely supported. Apparently, the shortages are projected to get worse in the future as baby boomers continue to age. The medical providers offer bonuses to attract new nurses, but I've heard that nursing programs are not producing enough graduates in part due to a lack of qualified instructors. Maybe you can clarify exactly what you would support in terms of health care reform. To summarize your views, as I think I understand them: you'd prefer a major overhaul along the lines of the Dutch model, although you don't think that's politically feasible. You would settle for something like the French system that includes a sizable public plan. Is it the Dutch model, or the French model, that would generate 10 - 15 percent savings from greater administrative efficiency? If it's the latter, it doesn't sound like we would get much cost savings in return for more government intrusion into private matters (the other cost savings you mention are more likley to be championed by pro-market advocates - tort reform, increasing supply, others?). I'm guessing, though, that you're also arguing for more government involvement to advance non-economic social equity concerns. How would the Obama plan improve the current system? How does the Obama plan compare to the Dutch or French models? After negotiations, what do you anticipate is the best incremental reform package that we can expect in the current poltical climate? Isn't the final Democratic plan likely to contribute even more to the "haphazard patchwork" of a "system" that we have now rather than create a more effective, efficient "unified whole"? If so, and there is very little chance that a relatively unified Dutch, French, or other useful model will be enacted, wouldn't folks like you be better served by joining with us to concentrate on the market-oriented reforms that we already agree on - tort reform, increasing supply, etc.? Let me ask you: Would you support a system that delivers only minor improvements across the board - slightly better results and slightly more equity - while very significantly increasing public sector involvement? Please keep in mind that a 50/50 trade, government for private investment, is not really an even trade when you factor in all the unintended side effects. You do seem to be a proponent of a top down, centralized system ("unified whole"), if not a single payer system. I'm a city planner and this reminds me of folks in my profession who argue that too many jurisdictions doing land use/transportation/economic planning make for a messy, patchwork of rules and regs, conflicting interests, etc. They prefer top down regional (or better yet State) planning authorities to streamline the process, increase efficiency, professionalism, rational decisionmaking. However, this approach also reduces individual choices, popular representation, intra-jurisdictional competition, experimentation, and so forth. Plus the regional/state planners end up being completely overwhelmed with data. The jury is still out on whether they produce greater efficiency. You did not respond to my concerns about a competitive public plan crowding out the private insurers in the U.S., which in turn would eventually necessitate centralized planning to determine prices, and - with the absence of a semi-private market in the U.S. - could create serious pricing problems in the rest of the world. Are you conceding these points? My (revised) plan: allow taxpayers the OPTION of checking off a box on their returns to pay a relatively low amount (maybe $175/year) for a very downsized public plan: 2 doctor visits per year, catastrophic coverage, plus auto entry into a full Medicare/Medicaid plan in certain cases. So, if a single adult signs up, tests come back positive, they're now guaranteed coverage. Yes, this would raise the costs of the general pools, but that would be offset by market reforms, and you could then pass stricter rules against rescission. The small public plan would be subsidized but would not compete with private full coverage plans. Combine this with other previously mentioned market-oriented reforms.
  17. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96826
    Jeb
    I’m not suggesting a “fact finding commission” (if you are going to be hypersensitive about adding words, perhaps you should not in the very same message be adding words), but rather a full-fledged policy development process. Health care reform IS going to happen at this point, regardless of whether we presume the evil intentions of Republican critics.
    I don't presume evil intent. I see strong ideological disagreement. The primary objection from the right has not been, 'your not going about it right' it is, 'you shouldn't be doing it at all'.
    Our choice is how to best do it. And my argument is that artificially rushing the process simply to pander to purists OR out of paranoia about powerless Republicans is a really dangerous course of action.
    and you have stated that you feel all the work that has been done toward that end is just so much partisan politics and that a new framework needs to be set up to address it. How do you picture this framework. I am guessing a presidential panel would not suffice since that would still leave control in Obama's hands rendering it to no more than a partisan document. A congressional health care commission composed of members acceptable to both parties would take months and putting together a report that all of them were willing to put there names to could make the 9/11 commission look speedy. I would be shocked if it were completed within two years. You may find this the most prudent course of action and you may be much more optimistic about the process, but to me it looks like one more delay that in the end will accomplish little. Something that I think has been lost in this back and forth is that I also don't agree with setting an October deadline for a vote. I think that the finance committee should continue to hear from experts and continue to gather information to make the eventual bill as good as it can be, but I don't think that a commission is the way to go about it.
    The application of the theoretical policy frameworks to the specific current demographic, financial, and economic situation. None of these sets of data from 1993 could be useful. Also, medical technology and treatment standards have not been static for the last 15 or even the last 5 years.
    Not the point I was making. Congress was presented with the problem in 1993. What did they do about it from then until the last year or two? Why do you think that is?
  18. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96834
    Jeb
    but I’ve heard that nursing programs are not producing enough graduates in part due to a lack of qualified instructors.
    I have been teaching in a feeder program for nurses and it is frustrating to see what the students are put through. There is a two year wait list for the nursing schools here in the Bay Area, there is a shortage of venues willing to take on enough student for internships, a shortage of instructors for the nursing schools, a shortage of facilities...
    Is it the Dutch model, or the French model, that would generate 10 - 15 percent savings from greater administrative efficiency?
    If memory serves both have better than a 20% difference in admin costs compared with us. I doubt we would net the entire difference, particularly since we will almost certainly do this piecemeal. I think with a radical overhaul we could realize 10-15% of that and with the piecemeal approach we will likely end up with less.
    I’m guessing, though, that you’re also arguing for more government involvement to advance non-economic social equity concerns.
    If you mean that I think that having ~40 million people in this country without adequate health care is a moral issue then yes.
    How does the Obama plan compare to the Dutch or French models?
    Obama's plan takes elements of the French system. The primary similarity is the expansion of Medicare (and like programs) and government employee insurance. Employer based health care will remain for bottom up coverage unlike in France. Also unlike the French model there are tax breaks to buy ground up insurance either from either a private or public entity. There is loss in administrative savings with this approach but most Americans are covered by employer provided health care and like it that way. I think that we would be better off decoupling employment and health care, but I am afraid that is not a political possibility. Pooling employers to reduce costs is an element in his plan and every other plan. Most of the rest is quite specific to our system as it stands now. Some element of tort reform is included, etc.
    You did not respond to my concerns about a competitive public plan crowding out the private insurers in the U.S., which in turn would eventually necessitate centralized planning to determine prices, and - with the absence of a semi-private market in the U.S. - could create serious pricing problems in the rest of the world. Are you conceding these points?
    No. I think that France, Germany, and others along with the wealth of Medigap insurances are testimony to the ability of private insurers to find a way when confronted with a public provider. The public provider is after all taking the business with the lowest margins. Given that any plan for the US in the foreseeable future will leave employer provided bottom up coverage I think that it is even less of a concern.
    My (revised) plan: allow taxpayers the OPTION of checking off a box on their returns to pay a relatively low amount (maybe $175/year) for a very downsized public plan: 2 doctor visits per year, catastrophic coverage, plus auto entry into a full Medicare/Medicaid plan in certain cases. So, if a single adult signs up, tests come back positive, they’re now guaranteed coverage.
    Add a couple layers of coverage to include more available screenings and some more basic medical care and means test for contribution and we are close.
  19. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96846
    Jason Arvak
    Employer based health care will remain for bottom up coverage unlike in France.
    What will stop employers from simply dumping their health care benefits programs under the assumption that employees could now simply sign up for the "public option"? Doesn't the argument about cheaper auto manufacturing assume that the auto companies will do exactly that?
    I think that we would be better off decoupling employment and health care, but I am afraid that is not a political possibility.
    Well that's not because of the evil corporations and insurance companies, though, Jeb. It is because no one has the slightest idea how to pay for a single-payer health care system, especially given the deplorable fiscal state of our country right now. And let's not forget that the infamous Clinton health care plan which you apparently believe to have been a fine proposal combined the worst elements of complete government control with "employer mandates" that tried to force business to foot the bill for the 100% government-controlled bureaucracy. It is not, in fact, the case that the only reason that the grand schemes of health care purists have not been fulfilled is because the people who disagree with them are just bad, evil people.
    What did they do about it from then until the last year or two? Why do you think that is?
    I thiknk they did little to nothing on the truly important parts of the issue because there is no political benefit to actually addressing the practical problems of designing a health care system that can actually be run and paid for. Activist groups have generated rafts of studies for comprehensive health care systems using implausible and ideologically purist hypothetical funding schemes like extreme tax rates on "the rich" or near-total elimination of all military spending, but I don't consider those proposals to be sound foundations for practical reform. I think Congress has been doing pretty much what health care purists are doing now -- championing the rhetorically easy parts of health care reform when it is politically convenient to do so, but kicking the real problems of paying for it down the road forever. The vast disconnection between what President Obama says his health care plans will cost and what even the Democrats' own CBO says it will cost if proof positive that the funding issues are not being honestly dealt with even now.
  20. Posted by Doomed
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96847
    Doomed Health care for all is NOT free. Period. Under the current proposals from what I've read the plan will insure the roughly 39,000,000 Americans who dont have insurance now but let another 36,000,000 fall thru the cracks. So essentially we destroy the American economy and end up right where we are now. Talking point. I don't know. I'm not even remotely qualified to talk about health care reform, but I do Know one important fact about life.....NOTHING is free. Everything costs and the plans being thrown out fast and furious after debating this crap for 50 years is junk. The politicians in DC are trying to give us health care for FREE....well its not free but they are trying the old smoke and mirrors approach to it....hide the cost, delay the fiscal impact and then later on when the PEOPLE begin feeling the real pinch of paying for the poor........They just all blame it on the other side and the American people buy it because they can't possibly believe that their favorite Democrat or Republican that they voted for could possibly have messed up. Nothing is free and this health care fiasco is guaranteed to be the greatest fiasco in a 100 years because we are rushing it thru and trying to hide the impact and cost in double talk.
  21. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96855
    Jeb
    What will stop employers from simply dumping their health care benefits programs under the assumption that employees could now simply sign up for the “public option”?
    Among other things state laws.
    Doesn’t the argument about cheaper auto manufacturing assume that the auto companies will do exactly that?
    That is not an argument I have made.
    Well that’s not because of the evil corporations and insurance companies, though, Jeb.
    If you look back at my comment you will see my stated reason that it is not a political possibility. Hint, it has nothing to do with evil and is only tangentially related to corporations.
    It is not, in fact, the case that the only reason that the grand schemes of health care purists have not been fulfilled is because the people who disagree with them are just bad, evil people.
    Why do you keep at this 'evil' nonsense? I have not once implied evil intent. It is firm ideological disagreement. Please respond to what I write rather than painting over it with what you imagine I mean.
    I thiknk they did little to nothing on the truly important parts of the issue because there is no political benefit to actually addressing the practical problems of designing a health care system that can actually be run and paid for.
    When the party in power is ideologically opposed to the proposition nothing will be done on that front. I submit that the likelihood of a Republican controlled congress or WH passing a universal health care plan is about as likely as a Democratically controlled congress or WH building a complete border fence. Their ideology determined their action, not evil intent. I have been repeatedly explicit about this, yet you continue to put words in my mouth. Again, I would appreciate the courtesy of response to my actual words rather than response to imagined intent.
    even the Democrats’ own CBO says
    Come on now. Was it the Republicans' CBO 3 years ago? No, and it's not the Democrats' now.
  22. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96856
    Jeb
    Under the current proposals from what I’ve read the plan will insure the roughly 39,000,000 Americans who dont have insurance now but let another 36,000,000 fall thru the cracks.
    Where did you come by those figures?
  23. Posted by CStanley
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96859
    CStanley Jeb, you've repeatedly indicated in this thread that you see Obama's plan as an honest proposal for a shift in the private/public hybrid from slightly less than 50:50 to slightly more than 50:50. I'd be interested to hear your response then to the following videos which indicate that the plan being pushed right now is a thinly veiled attempt to incrementally impose a single payer public health care system. http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/12/video-the-public-plan-deception/ http://www.verumserum.com/?p=6413 If the people who developed the current plan, when speaking to friendly audiences (those who favor single payer), admit openly that they know that such a system can't be sold to the public so they should instead create a Trojan horse of a 'competive' model with public and private options- and admitting that this will drive private insurers out of business and ultimately result in single payer system, then why on earth should we believe that Obama and the Democrats who support his plan aren't attempting to do exactly that?
  24. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96860
    Jason Arvak
    Come on now. Was it the Republicans’ CBO 3 years ago? No, and it’s not the Democrats’ now.
    Yes, it was, and it was certainly treated that way by critics. Yet somehow the reciprocal treatment now is intolerable? Anyway, any entity which claims to be non-partisan should be treated with skepticism. People For the American Way claims to be non-partisan, as does the National Rifle Association and MoveOn.org. Let's not be (or pretend to be) naive. And if you don't think that the people who work at the CBO know which side butters their bread at any given point in time, I think that's naive. This does not mean that the CBO numbers are wrong or intentionally biased, just that we should consider them only as part of the available information and remain open to new analysis or questions about methodology and assumptions. Appeals to supposedly definitive and unbiased sources are usually the province of the intellectually lazy.
  25. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96862
    Jeb CS, I support a move to a French or Dutch style system because I think those are the best models currently out there. Some may try to move to single payer in the future. If they do so I will oppose it. While the explicit goal is still to move toward a French model I will continue to support it. I think the likelihood of our moving to a single payer system in the foreseeable future is negligible and I am skeptical of slippery slope arguments in general. What legislation is is far more important to my calculus than what may or may not come on its heels.
    and admitting that this will drive private insurers out of business and ultimately result in single payer system
    Advocates for single payer may hope so and some on the right may fear so, but I think that the evidence of systems currently in operation show it to be unlikely. The French have had their system for decades and yet private insurers remain and even thrive. The system proposed here is more limited in scope than is the French system. The same is true in Germany. The same is true for people in this country covered by Medicare. The quote from Obama expressing support for single payer was from 2003. I think it quite possible that his position has changed in the intervening years. Later he supports moving away from employer provided insurance to something more portable. As mentioned earlier I think this would be best, but is not a political possibility at present. His comments (out of context) are interspersed primarily with an activist for single payer with no clear connection to Obama or the legislature.
    Yes, it was, and it was certainly treated that way by critics.
    Two separate points. The fact that the CBO has been quite consistent and has not held back information quite damaging to the party in power then or now indicates to me that they are considerably less partisan than you implied ("the Democrats' own CBO). The most common political use of CBO reports during the Bush years was by Democrats pointing out the disparity between WH predictions and CBO predictions (this while Republicans still controlled congress). If the CBO reports comported with WH predictions they were ignored by Dems (or dismissed as partisan) and if they strayed from WH predictions they were trumpeted (the inverse was also true). I predict the exact same responses now with roles reversed and lo and behold initial returns look promising for my prediction.
  26. Posted by Jeb
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96864
    Jeb Something else that I think has been lost here is that there are multiple single payer models most of which allow and do have supplemental private insurance and that the usage of this term in the general health care debate is so nebulous that the French or even Dutch systems would qualify as single payer (by the usage I commonly see).
  27. | Quote | Trackback | Link #96866
    Patrick Glenn Jeb: several econometric studies have projected that the introduction of a public health plan will indeed "crowd out" the private plans. For a summary of this argument, see recent WSJ article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124502127377113741.html Already there is a lot of cost-shifting from public plans - Medicare and Medicaid - to families enrolled in private plans. Private plans do not compete with private plans on a level field. For example, public insurers can enforce contracts using criminal courts, whereas private insurers must resort to civil courts. Unlike private insurance companies, Medicare and Medicaid cannot fail; they are backed by the U.S. Treasury. Government can use its monopsonistic power to set its own prices, while private insurers cannot. According to a 2002 study, the French system was more than 76 percent publicly funded. Yes, due to rising health care costs everywhere, private "complimentary" plans are on the rise there, but these are only boutique plans. They do not compete with the government to provide the large "basic" coverages. The public plan has no competition within its domain. Then, private insurers compete against other private imsurers for the leftover, complimentary market. In contrast, the Dutch model is public funding, paid to private insurers. Again, no competition between private and public plans. I'm still not seeing much evidence that private insurers can compete and/or coexist with government in the same market. Also, I haven't seen anyone here make a slippery slope argument, such as "a public plan will inevitably lead to socialized medicine." Actually, the path to social democracy is being laid out clearly in front of us and health care is moving in that direction: http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/deficit.jpg. But, yes, if the American people have the will, they can go back in the other direction. It's just that it's a lot harder to go in reverse than forward.
  28. Posted by Doomed
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #96871
    Doomed The French System of health care: Reimbursement is regulated through uniform rates. The financing is supported by employers, employee contributions, and personal income taxes. The working population has twenty percent of their gross salary deducted at source to fund the social security system. 20 percent of their gross salary JUST for health care. TWENTY percent. Health care is not free.....and the democrats are going to slip thru a mindbogglingly expensive plan and saddle America for ever with socialism and extremely high taxes. Frankly America cannot afford health care...Period. We cant balance our budgets so why should we have health care for all? Truth is we cant...not without going bankrupt.