CStanley I would agree with you, Michael, except that I've seen how shockingly ignorant the public is about health issues. I've conversed with a number of normally intelligent people who actually did question whether people contract this virus from eating pork (and I got the sense that my refutation of that wasn't necessarily convincing to them, that they might avoid eating pork just to be on the safe side.) I do agree it's probably too late, but in principle I think it makes sense in the future to avoid calling these novel virus strains by the species in which the strain mutated, since that's generally going to be birds or hogs which are food commodities.

Jason Arvak Are you kidding? I won't even touch a football, Christine. :)

Jane Schmo Most people can't even tell you who is in control of Congress, and you want them to remember "H1N1 virus"? Good luck Napolitano...oh yeah, and God bless our troops. Thanks for risking your lives for us. We love you, no matter what Napolitano says.

CStanley LOL, just use lots of hand sanitizer afterward, Jason. And of course, don't eat the football.

Jason Arvak This is Nebraska, Christine. Eating the football afterward is a religious sacrament. It's kind of like transubstantiation, except exactly the same.

Michael Merritt I had some Bacon on Monday. Do you think I'm alright?

c3 This is a serious issue. I would ask this of the media: If reasonable public health official state the calling this virus "swine flu" may lead someone to take inappropriate measures to avoid infection (i.e. not eat pork vs. good handwashing), why would they keep using the term "swine flu". If we can learn the term HIV why can't we learn H1N1?

Jason Arvak c3, there is no evidence I am aware of that calling it "swine flu" leads to any adverse public health actions. All it does is scare the pork industry. Also, Michael and Christine, since apparently there is some evidence of the virus including avian flu DNA as well, I am recommending that we all avoid chicken too. Also turkey. And tofurky. The last one has nothing to do with the flu, it's just nasty.

Selin I'm pissed, as usual. Is anyone concerned that feeding livestock extraordinary amounts of antibiotics may have caused such virus mutations to occur? I'd read that unnecessary usage of antibiotics especially in cows or pork could have very undesired consequences, one of which would be accidental development of novel mutated and antibiotic resistant viruses. And VOILA... Now, why aren't we reading such criticism of the industry in the media? Their antibiotic feeding practices are unnecessary, unhealthy, and downright dangerous for the entire world. Now that livestock & farming lobbies are trying to prevent us from calling the disease they have successfully created by its proper name, are we not allowed to criticize how much their concerns for their "bottom line" have put the entire humanity at risk? Yes, I would go vegeterian if I were in North America at this moment. It doesn't matter that the flu is not transmittable via eating livestock. That should be my own decision, right?

Selin http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/swine-flu-antibiotic-abuse-agribusiness-greed.php Sorry for the cut and paste below, but I feel it's too important to neglect: ------------------ So what is the link between this strain of antibiotic-resistant bacteria and the industrial farming complex? Well, for years many scientists have speculated that these massive, inhumane swine “factories” could become incubators for virulent super-pathogens that could quickly spread as a pandemic – whether it’s through direct contact, contaminated groundwater, or by air travel. Thanks to the crowded and unhygienic conditions of these “factories”, animals are pumped full of antibiotics – the prerequisite for antibiotic resistant organisms and a potential public health crisis. According to a study by the Union of Concerned Scientists, seventy percent of all antibiotics in the U.S. go to healthy livestock, while a 2008 peer-reviewed study by the Medical Clinics of North America concluded that antibiotics in livestock feed were “a major component” in the rise in antibiotic resistance. “We don’t give antibiotics to healthy humans,” says Robert Martin, who led a Pew Commission investigating antibiotic use on industrial farms. “So why give them to healthy animals just so we can keep them in crowded and unsanitary conditions?” Why? It’s because big agribusiness interests have been successful so far in preventing any legislation that could have banned the non-therapeutic use of antibiotics in the name of the bottom line. It’s cheaper to give drugs to animals, force them to live under appalling conditions, than to provide humane alternatives – and even cheaper to externalize ecological and health costs of such operations to countries like Mexico. ------------------

Jason Arvak Please re-read your own source, Selin. That refers to the problem of antibiotic resistant bacteria, not the swine flu virus. Overuse of antibiotics does cause problems with antibiotic resistant bacteria. It has zero relationship to the evolution and spread of any virus. Also, radical environmentalist web sites have very poor credibility on any subject due to their persistent propensity to fabricate, falsify, misrepresent, caricature, exaggerate, and engage in hyperbole in the service of their underlying political ideology.

CStanley Quite right, Jason. Even the fingerpointing at antibiotic feed additives as the cause of antibiotic resistance tends to be overblown, and the attacks on the livestock industry for using feed additives are generally absurdly mischaracterized (ignoring the fact that without such practices, we'd never be able to produce enough affordable meat for the world's population)... But to try to tie it in with the novel flu strain we're now seeing is just utter propaganda (too bad this isn't bovine flu or I could have punned with 'udder propaganda'- but there, I managed to get it in anyway.)

alaina duh! yah ur fine...its just in germs and bacteria...not food

Josef Taylor @CStanley CStanley and Jason Arvak are absolutely correct in that antibiotics aren't to blame for the swine flu virus. That doesn't make factory farming OK, however, since the antibiotic overload is still a problem -- just not for the swine flu. The other conditions present in factory farms may well encourage new, deadlier forms of flu. Moreover, since without these practices, we couldn't make enough affordable meat for the world, maybe meat isn't affordable.

Jason Arvak

The other conditions present in factory farms may well encourage new, deadlier forms of flu.

Pure speculation, no evidence offered.

Moreover, since without these practices, we couldn’t make enough affordable meat for the world, maybe meat isn’t affordable.

And here we begin to see the authoritarian underbelly of politicized veganism. Don't live like they want you to live? Then your lifestyle can be declared unsustainable and banned.

Adrien Malivert @Michael Merritt Michael, Swine flu cannot be passed through food, unless someone was to cough or sneeze on your food, but other than that, you should be fine! :D

john

Selin : I’m pissed, as usual. Is anyone concerned that feeding livestock extraordinary amounts of antibiotics may have caused such virus mutations to occur? I’d read that unnecessary usage of antibiotics especially in cows or pork could have very undesired consequences, one of which would be accidental development of novel mutated and antibiotic resistant viruses. And VOILA… Now, why aren’t we reading such criticism of the industry in the media? Their antibiotic feeding practices are unnecessary, unhealthy, and downright dangerous for the entire world. Now that livestock & farming lobbies are trying to prevent us from calling the disease they have successfully created by its proper name, are we not allowed to criticize how much their concerns for their “bottom line” have put the entire humanity at risk? Yes, I would go vegeterian if I were in North America at this moment. It doesn’t matter that the flu is not transmittable via eating livestock. That should be my own decision, right?

While I agree with you 100% that use of antibiotics (and hormones) is both dangerous and deplorable, I would just like to point out that antibiotics do not affect viruses, only bacterium. However what you are describing has happened in the past, with bacteria. That's not to say that the hormones didn't play a role in the mutation, I would not be surprised at all if the steroid fueled host cells caused the mutation.

Selin Oh, okay. We can all sleep sound at night knowing that the farming and livestock interests had nothing to do with the deplorable conditions in the pig farm that created the outbreak in Mexico. Looks like that's what the U.S. media is doing, even ridiculing people who overreact.

Selin Jason, you are affirming that bacteria and viruses are two different things, which we all get. However the conclusion remains that the filthy practices on the farms and excessive use of all kinds of antibiotic and antiviral substances on pigs may have lead to a mutated form of a virus that is called the swine flu, although it may not have been scientifically proven. In fact, the environment can react in combinational ways to create unforeseen consequences, which generally happens when you screw around with the food chain in any way you please. Scientists who claim that may be ridiculed as "speculating", much like those who believe in global warming because a distinct cause and effect relationship has not been found. People choose to believe what they believe. If it makes one sleep better at night to trust agri-farming interests and government officials, I don't have a lot to say.

CStanley However the conclusion remains that the filthy practices on the farms and excessive use of all kinds of antibiotic and antiviral substances on pigs may have lead to a mutated form of a virus that is called the swine flu, although it may not have been scientifically proven. Well, Selin, it hasn't been scientifically proven that invisible space aliens have transferred the virus to Earth either, so should we cancel the space program just in case? There has to be some level of evidence before you can make a legitimate claim, and a vague, 'maybe the combination of factors could lead to this' just isn't scientifically valid and shouldn't be given any weight. You'd have to at least point to evidence that virus mutation was ever influenced by antibiotic load, or even some process that theoretically could result in that. If it makes one sleep better at night to trust agri-farming interests and government officials, I don’t have a lot to say. I don't sleep in blind trust, but I do in fact sleep better since I have a full belly as a result of some of the policies. And where trust needs to be verified, I know that we need honest critique of policies, not anti-industry propaganda.

Selin Sorry - just noticed yesterday I've coined up a phrase "antibiotic resistant viruses", which is definitely incorrect. I'm definitely having difficulty with self expression, while mixing up hormones and antivirals and antibiotics - but it does not refute the argument that somehow all these conditions would have lead to such a virus mutation on the industrial farms. Maybe I'm not explaining my argument in a flawless scientific fashion, but I do believe that there is a cause and effect relationship here. Also this whole swine flue is being exploited to promote racism against immigrants by certain commentators, which is very ironic given the fact that the specific farm in question, like most farms in the area, is owned by U.S. interests that have outsourced their dirty operations to Mexico and made them even dirtier and cheaper down there. That's the other irony of course.

CStanley Well, Selin, you haven't even made an argument for cause and effect as far as I can see. And can you cite examples of someone who's 'exploiting to promote racism'?

Selin Christine, there is a lot of material out there on the idea that these industrial farms have incredibly poor sanitary conditions, and warnings that have been made by a lot more respectable scientific organizations that the combination of many treatments could lead to more dangerous outbreaks, months before this swine flu outbreak. I am not on a mission for any anti-industry propaganda, in fact, it appears that my mention of unsanitary conditions on farms and my objection to industry practices have led others to perceive me as on such a mission. I'm surprised. This is just my opinion, and I believe it's related to swine flu, and I'm doing my best in trying to explain it despite the fact that I am not a scientist. I'm concerned for health reasons, and expressing my opinions the best I can. Why do you need to engage in ad hominem criticisim and write off what I say as anti-industry propaganda I have no idea. But it looks like you're attacking the messanger rather than the message.

Selin http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bonnie-fuller/hate-mongering-conservati_b_192412.html

CStanley Selin, when you quote from propagandistic websites, then you're encouraging the spread of what they are saying (whether or not your intent was to propagandize.) There are some very legitimate complaints that should be addressed (Salmonella and E Coli in our food chain are much more directly tied to these farming practices, for instance. MRSA is a little more tenuous since most of the resistance seems to come from overuse of human antibiotics, but it's still a legitimate issue to address.) If you stick to the real issues, then I have no problem with the discussion. But the attempt to tie this in with factory farming is one of those political tactics that we see all too often, which I can't abide. To give you an example, recently when actress Natasha Richardson died of injuries sustained in a ski accident, people in this country who oppose nationalized healthcare tried to tie her death to the deficiencies of the Canadian health care system. While I'm personally opposed to nationalized healthcare, particularly a Canadian type system, I found those arguments to be disingenuous and opportunistic. There probably are points to be made about deficiencies in the system there, but private health care systems don't necessarily provide optimum care at every point in the chain either and one anecdote doesn't prove anything. So I see a similar attempt here, the grasping at straws to prove a case even when the evidence isn't really there. For instance, I googled the author of that first piece you quoted and found links back to another website that also features some of her articles. That site had another piece on this supposed link to the Smithfield farm, with this passage:

Back in Mexico, residents of La Gloria have long complained about conditions at the Smithfield subsidiary, saying they are bothered by foul odors, flies and problems with water contamination from the massive lagoons where hog waste is stored. After an outbreak of severe respiratory illness in February, health workers sealed off the town and sprayed chemicals to kill flies that were swarming in people's homes, the Times U.K. reports. The Times also points out that the epidemic is likely fuel more controversy in Veracruz, home to thousands of farmers who claim the state stole their land in 1992. Now part of a movement called Los 400 Pueblos, the farmers -- most of them poor and many indigenous -- have become famous for their naked demonstrations in Mexico City. (For photos of the protests, click here.) Regardless of whether health officials ultimately tie the swine flu epidemic back to Smithfield's hog operations in Mexico, the story has already helped illuminate how factory farms can act as a vector for environmental injustice, imposing suffering on nearby communities because of the serious ecological problems associated with industrial livestock operations.

You got that? Even if there is NO link between this farm and the recent outbreak, it doesn't matter- the people who had previously been complaining about the farm want to use this to get publicity for their cause. That's called propaganda.

c-los who cares as long as it drives down foodprices, then I'm good.

Cor I agree, the public, and apparently certain governments are quite short-sighted, take for example the slaughter of 300k pigs in Egypt. And its not unsanitary conditions that are causing these viruses to mutate, its adaption, and random mutation. The flu originally only affected pigs, and somehow the DNA within the virus itself mutated to the benefit of the virus itself, to be able to overcome the human immune system. What does this have to do with unsanitary farm conditions?

Cor If theres a farm out their with a bunch of sneezing porkers, I think I'd agree with you though.

Tully "Factory farmed" pigs get a LOT more examination and testing than any barnyard animal, and are LESS likely to be originating flu vector pools than your average family pigsty in any Third World nation. There's a reason new flu strains tend to come out of Third World nations--the widespread prevalance of family chicken coops and pigstys combined with a lack of any veteranary monitoring of the animals. I am reminded somewhat of the Mad Cow panics, where some lawmakers wanted mandatory testing of feedlot beef cattle, which are slaughtered young, long before the disease can manifest and be transmitted, or even be tested for. vector for environmental injustice LMAO. Nothing like mixed metaphors for promoting truthy narrative to the excitable ignorant, eh?

CStanley LOL, I particularly liked that phrase too, Tully. And you're right about the rest too- I heard a talk by the lead CDC veterinarian last year, showing the models predicting pandemics and the key factor is the demographic shifts around the world which are causing more animals to be housed in close proximity to large population centers. Primarily this is due to exurban growth- which are rings of population growth around highly crowded urban centers, where the residents are living on small plots of land where they raise livestock for their family's consumption. This is where there's the most zoonotic potential. As I said, there are definitely other valid criticisms of industrialized agriculture- it's just a shame that the propagandazed delegitimize the real issues by drowning them out with nonsense.

Tully I'm also a bit annoyed about the casual use of the word "pandemic" by the media and some few health agencies in regards to the latest outbreak. As of now, regardless of what you hear on the news, we do not have anything resembling a pandemic. Morning report from FEMA/CDC is 141 confirmed US cases with ONE fatality, the Mexican toddler in Texas who reportedly had other serious health issues and did not get treatment until already critical. In other words, at this point there is no solid indication that this new H1N1 strain is any more deadly than the "normal" influenzas that annually kill 36,000 Americans.

Jason Arvak The problem is that the bar for a "pandemic" is actually far lower than the rhetorical sound of the term would suggest. This is on the verge of being a pandemic, technically, but the reality of a pandemic will fall far short of what the movies and popular culture leads people to associate with that term. Naturally, the media has no interest in pointing that out, however. Much better to increase ratings by needlessly scaring the hell out of people ala Joe Biden. And as we have seen on this very thread, there is much hay to be made by exaggerating and distorting the situation in the service of various extremist political causes. Environmentalist extremists LOVE a good disaster, even if they have to misrepresent the truth in order to manufacture it. I am increasingly convinced that this "swine flu pandemic" is a classic example of a media event, not a serious threat to public health. That isn't to suggest that people won't get sick and that possibly some people with weak systems might even die. But influenza does that anyway by the 1000s every year. This doesn't appear to be anything like 1918, even taking into account the improvements in medical care that would mitigate such a disaster anyway. But there is just so much political and psychological benefit to be had by exaggerating the crisis that it seems irresistible for some people of a certain political/social bent.

CStanley Personally I see it as a great fire drill. It very well could turn out to be similar to 1918 when there was a mild first wave, and we're now implementing the steps that could prevent the future waves which could be much worse. Of course it's like foiling a terrorist plot- if we successfully fend it off, then no one will believe that there was ever any real threat. Still, better for that to happen then to be caught with our pants down. The thing is that when you ignore the media hoopla and politicization attempts, things are being handled pretty well by most of the agencies that need to engage the problem, and the heightened alert is appropriate for them to take certain steps.

brittany I think it will teach everyone to be sanitary.

Garland I wonder on exactly what grounds we subject animals to nightmarish experiences they are obviously unprepared for. I mean, the same distinctions we make between them and us could easily be made by a type of sentients we have never met, and us. That's what really bothers me; nothing is articulated or defended when it comes to our way of life and everything we take for granted - it has all become ubiquitous by default. Let's start cloning our meat post haste.

Jan Well, you can certainly tell that the pork industry has their "tools" monitoring this site and flooding the responses with their industry policy statements. Follow the money straight to the cesspools where they raise and slaughter the pigs.

Jason Arvak Well, the only quoting of external policy statements are coming from the anti-meat side, so I don't know what you are talking about.

some dude I've heard rumors that the flu was created by ppl. apparently 2 different strians of swine flu, from different parts of the world, avian flu, and human flu (which makes it possible to infect humans). I thought viruses mutated, not combine with others to makea brand new one. And it seems odd how these three or four combinations magically appeared out of nowhere so suddenly as one strain.

CStanley LOL, I believe that's the first time I've been accused of being a tool of the pork industry. You outed me, Jan! I've been hanging at this blog for like 3 years, commenting daily, because I knew this topic would come up one day and I could flood with pro-pork comments!

allan it is the pig we should stop eating pigs

Rubai It is very pathetic. We must stop eating pigs.

tira well i am glad becasue i was going crazy

Love Poems & Quotes I guess that's why they changed name into H1N1 virus