Crimson Politics How disgraceful. That's what happens, when you elect someone who's background is religion & conspiracy theories. This goes for ALL Sides of the aisle. Whether it is Mike Huckabee who uses religion to his advantage, excessively--or whether it is Barack Obama pandering to Evangelists. Exploitation of religion should be outlawed.

Selin Michael, I watched that debate too and I'm absolutely dumbfounded by your reaction. I watched Shimon Perez go on a monolouge and tirade for a lot longer than the time he was allowed, he shouted directly to Erdogan, pointed his finger to him. Was THAT the way to talk to the prime minister of Turkey? Absolutely not. By the way, why don't you report the fact that Shimon Perez called Erdogan afterwards to apologize? Why don't you report how inappropriate and disrespectful he was when practically shouting at him during the talk? By the way, you seem to report how things are going worse in Turkey, honestly, I've had enough of your fear mongering, and the way you are fanning the flames is not helping the situation in the least bit. In my opinion if there's any country that SHOULD be worried, it's Israel, not Turkey. Again, if things sour between Israel and Turkey, which they won't, it will be more Israel's loss and not Turkey's. Losing its only Middle Eastern ally will probably do a lot more damage than good. Israel has also lost so much respect around the world for what it has done, if there is a country that is becoming a lot lonelier and more isolated, it is Israel, not Turkey.

Yaakov Sullivan In Muslim culture it is very important honor and shame. When dealing with Muslim you have to be respectful much more them with European. Plus you need to understand Muslims feel inferior to Europeans so it adds up. I wouldn't worry too much. Normally they talk a lot but it's just talk without action.

a turk Though the moderation actually was unfair and Peres deserved a harsh response for all his response. What Erdogan did was totally silly. But this silliness will return to him as lots of local votes. (Believe me I know my people / I am quite sad because I support the opposition and we were on the rise). Also it is US and Israel who supported him in the first place. Another product of Dr. Frankestein. Being half eastern/half western as all Turks are (on a different scale in the spectrum) I tend to think this as a conspiracy. This is what will happen: The relations between Turkey and Israel won't suffer. Turkey will replace Iran as the main local boss in the region and would help West and Israel play their game in ME. As payment Erdogan will get continued support from the West against the local secularists. this is a very professional improvised act by an actor in a scripted play.

Noga "Shameless Erdogan Even the shameless Turkish leader Erdogan, joined the critics of Israel. Shameless, because it behooves him to keep his mouth shut. His country legislated laws that forbid mentioning the crimes perpetrated against the Armenians... Let's remind Erdogan of the tens of thousands of Kurds killed or slaughtered in the campaign to keep them quiet and subdued. Let us remind him of Leyla Zana and the short speech she made when elected to the Turkish Parliament. She didn't support terrorism. She didn't praise the lobbing of rockets from Kurdish to Turkish villages. She didn't call the Kurds "Shahids." Nothing like that. All she did was conclude her short speech with the words: "I take this oath for the brotherhood between the Turkish people and the Kurdish people." Her crime? She had made that "terrible" statement, only that final statement, in Kurdish. According to Turkish law, speaking that language is a crime. She lost her parliamentary immunity and was sentenced to 10 years of incarceration. When she wrote something from inside her jail, a further two years were added to her sentence. ... Hypocrisy has always been a quality some of them admire most. Now it's your turn, as well." http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/01/chapter-2-war-crimes-and-the-failure-of/index.shtml

libbylou I usually agree with your points Michael. Yes, Erdogan lost his cool and got emotional during the debate but I think many people are fed up with the way Israel handled this last tirade. And I don't think Israel can get away with such behavior under the this new administration. Even the New York Times readership was very upset: The Jewish moderates in America are NOT happy with Israel's recent assault on innocent civilians. First of all, the civilians in Gaza were trapped; where in modern Western Civilization do we bomb cities carte blanc? Even when the Americans bombed Iraq,we bombed Saddam's headquarters and military arsenals. Tell me when its allowed under the Geneva convention to bomb civilians carte blanc? Israel didn't ACCEPT Abbas SO THEY GOT HAMAS. Well they need to work with Hamas then. They want everything their way. I think its despicable that they used such horribly devastating weapons on the civilian population that doesn't have the medical equipement to treat the wounded. They knew that. As fart as I'm concerned, they are no better than any of the extremist groups in my eyes anymore. They have become such extremists themselves that I think the world has a right to be outraged at Israel and hold them accountable from now on. No more Bush policies! Thanks, Libby

Mike the only silly thing here is this article. erdogan acted with sincere feelings for 1300+ dead and 5000+ wounded in gaza. this whole discussion was meant to be a publicity stunt for israel, and erdogan wouldnt have any of that. thats all.

Elif Michael, I agree with you about Erdoğan losing his temper and I myself think that sometimes how you say something is more important than what you say. He is the prime minister of Turkey and he should have acted that way. However we know for a fact that Peres was not acting in accordance with the spirit of the forum and part of his speech was not even reflecting the reality in Gaza today. The moderator did not even see the need to warn him about his time when he exceeded 12 minutes (he talked for 25 minutes part of which was direct attacks to Erdoğan in not a very polite manner) although he saw the need to show that sensitivity both to Erdoğan and Amr Musa. Erdoğan very naturally (when someone makes an accusation to you, you intend to respond) wanted to respond to Peres but that was again interrupted by the moderator. The moderator even touched Erdoğan on the shoulder to interrupt him. Peres called Erdoğan afterwards to apologize. You know my views about Erdoğan and his party but all in all, I think we should be objective when necessary. Erdoğan had lots of attempts of peace talks in the region (with whatever hidden agenda) and he supported the peace in the region. Him showing his true colors is another story and is off topic now. When we look at the issue objectively, apart from his improper style I do not see any humiliation for Turkey or for myself. Peres calling him and apologizing afterwards strengthens my position. Whatever justified reason Israel had for the war in Gaza does no longer hold when Gaza today is an open prison for the wounded. Yes there are civilians killed and yes we know that was out of self defense and yes we also know that Hamas was using human shield. We all know these. But we also know that what Peres told yesterday is partially incorrect and you can not cheer a country who does not allow humanitarian aid into the region when it announces cease fire officially.

Selin "Perhaps you should get off your butt and do something about Erdogan is slowly turning your country towards the East and back in time." Your disrespectful attitude is not winning you any points here, Michael. You are young and you do not even realize that your aggressive and emotional attitude is rivaling that of Erdogan's here. Ironically, it was your emotional outbursts like that that I used to find entertaining, but there is some kind of a limit as to how much insults I'm able to take. There are so many prejudices behind what you are saying, including the assumption that Turkey would be better off turning towards the "West" and continue being the sucker that she has always been rather than being a leader in the region it resides at. Michael, a lot of your posts in general and especially those regarding Turkey are incredibly incredibly PERSONAL. I'm not going to go into the biased and prejudiced European perspective you carry with you that threaten with the stick the moment Turkey does something you don't approve of. What do you exactly want me to be? Be like those scared Turks with their inferiority complexes who think the West is superior in every way and could do no wrong? Do you want me to think that it is okay for the Israeli president to go on a tirade in a meeting just because they have America's back, and for the Turkish president to just sit there and take his insult including the condescending attitude of the moderator? Michael, if you are SO concerned about all this, why don't YOU apologize in our name to the Western press? Apologies by proxy seem to be the fashion nowadays, and you could start a new wave here.

Selin "According to Turkish law, speaking that language is a crime." Yeah, that's why Erdogan's government has launched a full blown TV channel that broadcasts in Kurdish EXCLUSIVELY. Michael, if you have ANY pretense of objectivity you should delete this post. The sentence above is an outright lie and part of an anti-Turkish propaganda.

Ray (Turkish) I agree with everything Selin cared to say here. May I also add that Erdogan maybe many things, but he definitely is not a wimp. Israel/Peres needed a slap on the hand, and they've FINALY got it from the Turkish Prime Minister. Being a Turk, do I feel shame or embarrassement from his attitude? None whatsoever.

Ray (Turkish) "Watch the video of Erdogan embarrassing not only himself but his entire country with him" I suggest you speak only for yourself Michael, you are in no position to judge how we (as Turkish citizens) feel about his speach. Erdogan is not the Sultan as you put it, but he is damn good close to being one. In fact he is the most successful/honest and gutsy Prime Minister Turkey has ever seen since the republic.

Ray (Turkish) @Ray (Turkish) Actually above reply was for "a Turk" not for Noga

Elif Ray, sorry but I am having difficulty in following you when you say that Erdoğan is 'the most successful / honest PM Turkey has ever seen'. He may be gutsy all right but most successful and honest are a little bit too much. Just because we do not feel ashamed, embarrassed or humiliated because of his act yesterday does not mean we have to praise him for no good reason. Michael, Erdoğan may have shown some of his true colors until yesterday (most of us already knew the true colors anyway) but what he said so far can never be seen as support to Hamas or Hezbollah. He simply indicated that Hamas was an elected leader and he was supported by Israel at the time just because it wanted chaos in the region and particularly in Palestine. Are we supposed to be supporting Hamas or at least do we have to be labelled like that just because we condemn loss of civilians, women and children in particular in wars? Is it one way or no way at all? Is everything black and white? Isn't your reaction to his act yesterday a little bit much? If Israel or Jewish lobby are after excuses to support PKK or any other terrorist organization than so be it. Nothing we say or do will change their minds. However labelling people as supporters of terrorism just because they condemn the dead of innocent or just because they show reaction to the half true picture presented by Peres of Gaza today or just because they dare to say things noone else does to me is not fair at all.

Selin "No I shouldn’t - you made clear it’s inaccurate, so why delete it? It is a falsehood, done then isn’t it?" Oh, so now participants in this forum are given the role of "policing" Poligazette? I had the impression that is the MODERATORS' job to do that. But you chose NOT to declare that a falsehood existed in one of the exising commentary as long as it appeared anti-AKP and anti-Erdogan. And you are using a separate international incident to attack Erdogan in domestic ways, yeah that does not seem like an even-handed approach. My experiences correctly tell me that an anti-AKP tirade quickly becomes an anti-Turkish one, I've seen that happen A LOT and yes this has hurt me personally and yet people let it slide as long as if fits their agenda. My own personal negative opinions regarding AKP are absolutely irrelevant here if an anti-AKP tirade is used to launch a personal attack against me (or Turkey). Yes, I read the commentary including how comments displaying factual false information (about leaders) will be deleted. The sentence regarding language ban is a FACTUAL FALSE information about Erdogan as well as his party. So according to the comments policy it should be deleted. It is also cut-and-paste and takes the opportunity to propagandize in other UNRELATED ways, by providing false information regarding Armenian genocide and PKK terrorism. By the way, even if they WERE accurate, it is wrong to bring these things into the discussion because we are discussing the Gaza issue here and how Erdogan reacted in a way that didn't appeal to the Western agenda concerning the Greater Middle East Project.

Ray (Turkish) @Elif Yes Elif he is the most: Successful - In politics and representing Turkey in the international arena, Honest - as In doing what he says he is going to do, Gutsy - as in not bowing in front of difficulties, critisim and attacks Show me, if you can, another Turkish prime minister who had these qualities. He is the one who gave Turkey a voice and recognition internationally. Elitists in Turkey would like us to believe that he will bring shariah to the country. I believe this accusation is way too far fetched and is being used as a anti-propaganda by his foes, namely the nationalist-secularists.

Elif Ray, I do not want to go into this argument with you right now in this site not only because it is not the place to do that and it is off topic but also when we go into this argument with you it may take for ages and we may never reach a common understanding with you in the end. I think it will be sufficient when I say that I agree with you about him being gutsy as I indicated before and his act yesterday although improper to some extent was necessary when Peres' accusations were considered. Him staying silent and doing nothing about Peres' emotional and half true out bursts as well as the moderators unequal management of the monologues would be more inaccurate.

Noga "Amid much fanfare, the Turkish state began test programming its new Kurdish language channel, TRT 6, in late December, and officially began operation of the channel at the start of the new year. Turks and many following Turkey from abroad hailed the opening of this new channel as a landmark in Turkish-Kurdish relations and a solid step in the democratization of Turkey. However, a closer look at TRT 6 reveals that it is just another dishonest action from a brutal, racist regime driven by the same hatred of the Kurdish people that drove its predecessors to kill tens of thousands of Kurds and burn thousands of Kurdish villages. Since its founding, Turkey has been, by its own definition, a state of only Turks and for only Turks. While Kurds comprise perhaps 20-25% of modern day Turkey’s citizenry and, of course, an overwhelming majority in those parts of Turkey which are part of the Kurds’ ancestral homeland of Kurdistan, the Turkish republic’s official policy since its establishment has been to deny in whole or in part the existence of the Kurdish people and their ethnic identity. Indeed, Turkey’s government has even sought to fight the expression of the Kurdish identity outside the borders of Turkey, refusing to recognize the existence of Iraq’s Kurdish federal unit and even working (unsuccessfully) to convince the University of Exeter in the United Kingdom to discontinue its Kurdish studies program. Time and time again, the use of the Kurdish language, a simple and important expression of Kurdish identity, has been forbidden or severely restricted. When Turkey was forced to print pamphlets using Kurdish in 1991 to warn refugees fleeing a massacre at the hands of Saddam’s henchmen, the Kurdish language was referred to as “local dialect” and not Kurdish. Within the last month, simple statements made in the Turkish parliament in the Kurdish language were officially recorded as statements in an “unknown language”. Within the last few weeks a number of politicians from the pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party (DTP) were investigated by the Turkish judicial system for using the Kurdish language publicly." http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=15334 I invite Selin to provide a point by point rebuttal for the facts I quoted in my original post as well as the facts recounted in this excerpt (including the case of Leyla Zana). I assume the source, being "kurdmedia" will be deemed highly biased by the righteous Selin. I expect to be provided with a bona-fide record of Turkey's language laws regarding Kurds, as well as their enforcement, from verifiable sources in English. That is, if Selin really wants readers of these comments to hear the Turkish narrative of this issue.

elturco The author of this article has no objectivity, plus anti-Turkish and anti-Muslim bias. Well, I don't claim any objectivity, either. Erdogan didn't embarrass anyone. He just had a valid and emotional human reaction to the biased Jewish-American moderator, who whouldn't have been the moderator at the very beginning, and against a 'president' of a country who just killed hundreds of childrens and women and civilians. I totally agree with what President Erdogan said, so does millions of people all over the globe. If we had a couple of more world leaders in the developed world speak the truth like this, women and shildren wouldn't die anymore...

elturco It is the character of a Turk to speak the truth boldy, to be alongside the weak and oppressed, even if this will cost him (or her) his (or her) life. The author of this article, apparently, has no knowledge and understanding of Turks, and he is judjing a Turk and the Turks with his limited, small, and of couse as a result, prejeduced knowledge.

ugur "As for “humiliating” condenscending, etc. - nonsense. Erdogan had a set amount of time to speak, he tried to go on for ages. That’s not allowed, whether you’re the prime minister of a country or not is irrelevant. When you’re PM you should also be able to deal with those people. Ignatius was quite a good moderator, Erdogan lost control and behaved like an ass." Peres spoke for about 23 minutes without any sort of interruption, warning or notice to finish his talk where the other participants have given 10 minutes to speak. For example, Amr Moussa was warned after 12 minutes. And that's what you call good moderation.

Noga Dramatic irony happens when one character relies on an argument the contrary of which is demonstrated by his words: Thus when someone says: "He just had a valid and emotional human reaction to the biased Jewish-American moderator, who whouldn’t have been the moderator at the very beginning" He is impugning the moderator for being a Jew, and therefore of course unreliable. Following with: "The author of this article, apparently, has no knowledge and understanding of Turks, and he is judjing a Turk and the Turks with his limited, small, and of couse as a result, prejeduced knowledge." in which he laments the limited judgment of a prejudiced mind, happily unaware that he was doing EXACTLY the same but a couple of sentences earlier. It's OK to suspect a Jew but it is not OK to suspect a TURK(!) of being nefarious. Hoa It's one of the most poignant forms of irony, for it points to a complete lack of self-awareness and congnitive dissonance.

libbylou To Elturco: My comments here have nothing to do with the topic, but I just wanted to respond to yours. I was astonished to read your assessment of the Turkish character trait. You are absolutely correct as far as I am concerned. As a Turk, with both parents of Turkish decent and yet an American citizen, I hold exactly the same character trait and wondered how I can be so emboldened at times to speak the truth, even if offensive to some. And I'm always a sucker for the weak and oppressed. I thought perhaps its an American thing. But I don't think so, my grandmother and mom are the same way.

Noga '...obviously an American of a Jewish descent would be naturally biased towards a Jewish head of state, just the same way all those Jewish Americans living in US emotionally and financially supporting Israel in their killings of innocent civiliants." Of course there is nothing "obvious" about anything you are claiming here. There are many American Jews who are vocally opposed to Israel's policies. YOU cannot distinguish between an American and An Israeli, if they are both Jewish. That makes YOU biased and ill-informed. You think it makes more sense to attribute the moderator's religion as the motivation for keeping to the timetable limits of the conference. How so? Erdogan aggressively and against the rules insisted on being given the privilege of extra time. WHY does he deserve this privilege? Because he is a Turk? If he were given that privilege then it would be only fair to give Peres a chance at rebuttal. Or maybe what's good for the Turk does not apply for the Jew, eh? Next time you go to a conference and present a paper, try taking extra time for your presentation, by way of entitlement, and see where it gets you. With egg on your face. Which is how Erdogan ended. Be assured that this little episode will not fade quickly from European memory. Europeans do not like these kinds of incontinent tantrums played out in a serious and civil forum. They prefer to deal with people who can keep their temper and deal with opposing views in mature and responsible ways, not childishly and wildly.

Noga "...shells UN schools and hospitals full of civilians. " I know about the UN school (and the circumstances it was shelled and the exact death toll), but can you show me the report about Israel shelling hospitals?

Noga Armand Sag , Are you serious? I specifically asked (knowing you would find my source biased) for verifiable, RELIABLE sources in English. Spilling a lot of words and trying to guess what I do or do not know or mean, is not going to divert from the fact that you cannot quite support your allegations. What about this part of the article I linked to: "Let’s remind Erdogan of the tens of thousands of Kurds killed or slaughtered in the campaign to keep them quiet and subdued. Let us remind him of Leyla Zana and the short speech she made when elected to the Turkish Parliament. She didn’t support terrorism. She didn’t praise the lobbing of rockets from Kurdish to Turkish villages. She didn’t call the Kurds “Shahids.” Nothing like that. All she did was conclude her short speech with the words: “I take this oath for the brotherhood between the Turkish people and the Kurdish people.” Her crime? She had made that “terrible” statement, only that final statement, in Kurdish. According to Turkish law, speaking that language is a crime. She lost her parliamentary immunity and was sentenced to 10 years of incarceration. When she wrote something from inside her jail, a further two years were added to her sentence" Is it true or false? What about the Turkish refusal to acknowledge the Armenian genocide? What about the new penal code, Article 301, which states: "A person who, being a Turk, explicitly insults the Republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months to three years."?? Do these seem like laws designed to promote fairness, equality, objectivity, tolerance? What right does the head of a country that creates and enforces such laws, that has such a history, to defame a country like Israel, when it is engaged in a war to defend its civilians from terrorist bombs and genocidal aspirations? Is it correct to assume now that Turkey is a friend of Hamas?

Jason, Managing Editor Because of a flood of anti-semitic and ad hominum comments as well as other repeated and deliberate violations of the comments policy, this comments thread has been closed and several commenters banned. Those banned must contact me by email if they wish to have their banning reconsidered. PoliGazette welcomes diverse points of view, but we choose not to publish comments which express their disagreements through personal attack or by embrace of outright racism and bigotry.