nevber Mustafa ka, thank you very much for your insightful and very well thought out exposé! You have literally summed up my thoughts and feelings... Armenian diaspora has taken over most important media outlets and groups pushing very well their deceitful lies and historical distortions. That is EXACTLY what the Turks need to tackle! The distortions, lies, false pictures, manipulation of the public sympathy and total support of certain interest groups are the core of the problem. 

nemorono Even those who ( historans)  are being paid by Turkish governement admits the reality  of genocide.In the  case of dr Donald  Quartet who has been obliged to resign from the chair of turkish studies in 2006 in USA.He was the honorary president of the institute of turkish studies  financed by Turkish governement. After 15 years of study he arrived at the conclusion that massacres of armenians constitute a genocide case.This  honnest    position of Dr Quartet provoked the anger of denylist turkish state which forced Dr Quartet to resign.The new generation of turkish historians such Taner Akcam Fatma Gocek or Halil Berktay who recognize Armenian genocide are well  placed to teach to their compatriots the historical truth and to help them to face the  reality.Armenian-turkish joint commision could only define  financial and  terittorial loses of armenian people.

Lucrèce Even those who ( historans) are being paid by Turkish governement admits the reality of genocide. Paul Dumont, Gwynne Dyer, Edward J. Erickson, Michael M. Gunter, Eberhard Jäckel, Bernard Lewis, Guenter Lewy, Justin McCarthy, Andrew Mango, Jeremy Salt, Norman Stone, Malcolm E. Yapp, Gilles Veinstein or Robert Zeidner are not "paid by the Turkish government", but reject the Armenian lies. After 15 years of study he arrived at the conclusion that massacres of armenians constitute a genocide case. Mr. Quataert has never produce one study about the Armenian affair, he repeat perrot fashion the Armenian propaganda and that is all. Mr. Quataert has never quoted the studies of Dr. Stoddard, Prof. Lewy and Dr. Erickson about the Special Organization. Do he know only that this studies exist? He praise the book of Mr. Bloxham, but not say that Mr. Bloxham 1) finds excuses the atrocities of the Armenian Legion in Cilicia, and the murders of Turkish diplomats between 1973 and 1984; 2) can not decide on to present the Armenians whether as the "oppressed victims" wailing under the "oppression" of the Ottoman state or as the "revolutionary heroes" who "uccessfully" (ah ah ah) struggles against the Ottoman state. http://www.eraren.org/index.php?Lisan=en&Page=DergiIcerik&IcerikNo=476 Praise such a book, without mentioning the contradictions and the fallcies, is unworthy of a real scholar. The place of Mr. Quataert is retirement.

Armen l:The photo depicted the founder of the Turkish Republic, Ataturk, sitting on a chair outside a house with the corpse of a young girl with her innards exposed to the elements. Um, the diasporan Armenians juxtaposed those images to show the modern day Turkish indifference to the subject of the Armenian Genocide; I'm rather dumbfounded why you Turks would actually think that photo meant that Ataturk was somehow involved in the massacres of 1915 when everyone knows he was still commanding troops in the Dardanelles. Talk about a non-victory, you guys actually bothered to "unmask" a poster that clearly had billed itself as a work of a Photoshop? - lol, I can now see why Turks are so afraid of the Armenian Diaspora.

Michael During a recent meeting with the Armenian community of Moscow President Sargsyan said, “Turkey proposes to form a commission to study historical facts. We do not mind it but the land border between our countries should be opened first. Otherwise, the commission may become a tool of abuse and protraction of the issue for many years.” Kocharyan had said no to earlier Turkish attempts to open archives due to the fact that if they open archives than it would be as if Armenia was doubting the genocide. Why study something everyone knows took place. About getting land back. Vardan Oskanyan, Armenias ex-foreign minister, had told Turkish officials, "we will stick to the borders drawn up during the treaty of kars."

nemorono those who are taking part to  that discussion are mainly denylist sites guided   by   turkish state.So we can ask some questions about the existence of such newspaper which so-called keep balance between denyers and historical truth.By doing that it  spreads misinformation about the historical truth of Genocide.Under the disguise of "opinions"if it does not promote policy of negation of Turkish state.

Mustafa Ka Now I want to ask Armenia and Armenian diaspora: ‘If all the scholars of the world, including the international scholars of genocide, support your thesis of genocide,and if you are very disturbed because of vehement reject of your genocide thesis by the Turkish government and the Turks, then: Why do you vehemently reject to bring your evidences in historical commissions made up of Armenian and Turkish historians in addition to historians from  third countries, as it was suggested to Armenia by the Turkish prime minister in 2005?Why do you not go to court?  Why HAVE YOU SPENT EFFORT TO FALSIFY ALL THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS? WHY HAVE YOU NEEDED LIES? Here are a few examples of the forgeries and falfified documents on which the Armenian thesis depend: 1)The number of Armenians who were relocated: The number of the Armenians who were relocated was reported as 600-700 thousand by Boğos Nubar Pasha who attended to the talks of Sevres Treaty as a chief of Armenians; however the number of relocated Armenians is given as 1.5 million by some Armenian sources and 2 and even 2.5 million by some others. However, the total number of Ottoman Armenians including those  who live in the West Anatolia (therefore who were not relocated) was reported as 1.5 million in Encyclopedia Britannica’s 1910 edition which was edited by an English editor. It is another striking point that the total number of Ottoman Armenians was increased to 2.5 million in 1953 edition of the same encyclopedia which was edited by an Armenian editor. 2) Aram Andonian’s book (The telegrams which were claimed to have been sent by Talat Pasha to order the massacre of the Armenians which were pressed in the book of Aram Andonian in 1920, in three languages): It was proven by both the Turkish and foreign historians that these telegrams were fake too.After these telegrams were published in Daily Telegraph in England, in 1922, the English Foreign Ministry made a scrutiny and denounced that they were prepared by an Armenian association.  3)Diary of American Ambassador Morgenthau published in 1918. Professor Heath Lowry, an American historian from Princeton University displayed that the events depicted in the book depended on lies or half true events, by comparing the information Ambassador Morgenthau sent to American Foreign Ministry, with those written in the diary, in his book entitled ‘The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story’, in 1990. What’s more, after the Ottoman State was defeated in the 1st World War in 1918, the French and English invaders arrested 144 high level Ottoman veteran or civil officials including the ex-prime ministers, ex-deputies, governors and many newspapermen, and banished them to Malta Island, claiming that they were  responsibles for the death of Armenians. The English seized all the Ottoman Archives and also all other archives in other cities, like those in Urfa Governer House. No evidence could be found neither in the Ottoman and English Archives. The Americans, whom the English applied, failed to find any proof in American Archives and reports of American Orthodox church or missioners either. Nor could Damat Ferit Pasha, then the Ottoman Prime Minister who was in absolute collaboration with the English could find any evidence. And, they had to make all these 144 Ottomans free in 1921, since they could not find any proof to be able to verdict them. Can you imagine a genocide planned by a government but no kind of proof can be found, even when the members of this government have been taken prisoners and when all her archieves are under control of the invaders and under the directory of an Armenian official? If The Blue Book, the telegrams of Aram Andonian and the diary of Ambassador Morgenthau (which had already been published at that time) were reliable proofs, why did the English and French invaders and the Americans not accept them to give verdicts of those 144 Ottoman officials? Additionally, during the trial in Berlin of the Armenian assassin Soghomon Tehlirian, who had murdered Talat Pasha in Berlin on March 15th, 1921, none of the Andonian documents was allowed to be entered into the court proceedings as evidence (Dashnakists’ book Justicier du Genocide, 1981, p.213).  4)The cover photograph of the book of Tessa Hoffmann: see comment 50 5)Atatürk’s photograph: see comment 50 ..................

Mustafa Ka Now I want to ask Armenia and Armenian diaspora: ‘If all the scholars of the world, including the international scholars of genocide, support your thesis of genocide,and if you are very disturbed because of vehement reject of your genocide thesis by the Turkish government and the Turks, then: Why do you vehemently reject to bring your evidences in historical commissions made up of Armenian and Turkish historians in addition to historians from  third countries, as it was suggested to Armenia by the Turkish prime minister in 2005?Why do you not go to court?  Why HAVE YOU SPENT EFFORT TO FALSIFY ALL THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS? WHY HAVE YOU NEEDED LIES? Here are a few examples of the forgeries and falfified documents on which the Armenian thesis depend: 1)The number of Armenians who were relocated: The number of the Armenians who were relocated was reported as 600-700 thousand by Boğos Nubar Pasha who attended to the talks of Sevres Treaty as a chief of Armenians; however the number of relocated Armenians is given as 1.5 million by some Armenian sources and 2 and even 2.5 million by some others. However, the total number of Ottoman Armenians including those  who live in the West Anatolia (therefore who were not relocated) was reported as 1.5 million in Encyclopedia Britannica’s 1910 edition which was edited by an English editor. It is another striking point that the total number of Ottoman Armenians was increased to 2.5 million in 1953 edition of the same encyclopedia which was edited by an Armenian editor.  2) Aram Andonian’s book (The telegrams which were claimed to have been sent by Talat Pasha to order the massacre of the Armenians which were pressed in the book of Aram Andonian in 1920, in three languages): It was proven by both the Turkish and foreign historians that these telegrams were fake too.After these telegrams were published in Daily Telegraph in England, in 1922, the English Foreign Ministry made a scrutiny and denounced that they were prepared by an Armenian association.   3)Diary of American Ambassador Morgenthau published in 1918. Professor Heath Lowry, an American historian from Princeton University displayed that the events depicted in the book depended on lies or half true events, by comparing the information Ambassador Morgenthau sent to American Foreign Ministry, with those written in the diary, in his book entitled ‘The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story’, in 1990.  What’s more, after the Ottoman State was defeated in the 1st World War in 1918, the French and English invaders arrested 144 high level Ottoman veteran or civil officials including the ex-prime ministers, ex-deputies, governors and many newspapermen, and banished them to Malta Island, claiming that they were  responsibles for the death of Armenians. The English seized all the Ottoman Archives and also all other archives in other cities, like those in Urfa Governer House. No evidence could be found neither in the Ottoman and English Archives. The Americans, whom the English applied, failed to find any proof in American Archives and reports of American Orthodox church or missioners either. Nor could Damat Ferit Pasha, then the Ottoman Prime Minister who was in absolute collaboration with the English could find any evidence. And, they had to make all these 144 Ottomans free in 1921, since they could not find any proof to be able to verdict them. Can you imagine a genocide planned by a government but no kind of proof can be found, even when the members of this government have been taken prisoners and when all her archieves are under control of the invaders and under the directory of an Armenian official? If The Blue Book, the telegrams of Aram Andonian and the diary of Ambassador Morgenthau (which had already been published at that time) were reliable proofs, why did the English and French invaders and the Americans not accept them to give verdicts of those 144 Ottoman officials?  Additionally, during the trial in Berlin of the Armenian assassin Soghomon Tehlirian, who had murdered Talat Pasha in Berlin on March 15th, 1921, none of the Andonian documents was allowed to be entered into the court proceedings as evidence (Dashnakists’ book Justicier du Genocide, 1981, p.213).  4)The cover photograph of the book of Tessa Hoffmann: see comment 50 5)Atatürk’s photograph: see comment 50 ..................

Lucrèce « An examination of the voluminous file listing the “accusations” against individual Malta detainees reveals the weakness of the legal case against them. For example, a note in the chart of Abbas Halim Pasha, minister of public works in 1915, stated: “No specific accusation has been made. He was a member of the cabinet which ordered the deportation entailing, the massacre of hundred thousands of Christians.” Several other ministers and CUP officials similarly found themselves as prisoners of the British simply on account of the office they had held. Ziya Gökalp had been a member of the CUP central committee; the military court in Constantinople that had tried him had produced non evidence whatever implicating him in any wrongdoing, yet he wound up in Malta accused of “atrocities”. The source of this accusation was not identified. Ahmed Muammer Bey, the vali of Sivas, was also accused of atrocities, in his case on the basis of incriminating telegrams that his dossier referred as “alleged to be translations of Turkish official telegrams”. Several dossiers include documents from the Andonian-Naim book. Pratically all the information in the dossiers had come from Armenian sources, who, under the trauma of the deportations and massacres, were inclined to accept almost any allegation of Turkish guilty. Even the processing of the information in the Armenian-Greek section of the office of the high commissioner was in Armenian hands. Until he was no longer needed in November 1920, the head clerk and keeper of records in the section was an Armenian named A. Fenerdjian. As mentioned earlier, another archivist was Haigazn Kazarian. For good reasons none of the information laboriously collected was considered legal evidence admissible before a British court of law. In their search for evidence the British turned to the United States. […] On July 13 [1921], after an embassy staff member had personally examinated “a selection of reports from United States Consuls on the subject of the atrocities committed during the recent war” and had checked the files for any mention of forty-five Malta detainees accused of outrages against Armenians and other Christians, the ambassador sent a follow-up report, which again was negative: “I regret to inform Your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial at Malta. The reports seen, while furnishing full accounts of the atrocities committed, made mention, however, of only two names of the Turkish officials in question ― those of Sabit Bey and Suleiman Faik Pasha ― and these cases were confirmed to personal opinions of theses officials on the part of writer, no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.” » Guenter Lewy, The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey. A Disputed Genocide, Salt Lake City, University of Utah Press, 2005, pp. 125/126.

Armen I don't get it, all you guys have to do is buy a book on the Armenian Genocide, flip to the references section, and read all the sources that have been pulled out of the Russian, American, German, British, French, Swedish, Swiss, and Danish archives, containing thousands of documents and accounts by foreigners who describe the deliberate destruction of the Armenian Genocide. ?The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau?s Story? Turks must understand that Lowery does not dispute Morgenthau's cables to the State Dept. detailing the massacres of the genocide. What he disputes is Morgenthau's description of notable individuals and the Turkish people as a whole. His book does not refute anything Morgenthau says although I have to say, the title of the book is clever and sows confusion to unsuspecting readers at a first glance. Furthermore, the canard of the British not having any evidence is to prosecute the Turks they held at Malta is complete nonsense and utter tosh. The British had the evidence although the deteriorating situation in Anatolia thanks to Kemal's rebellion and the fact that Kemal's forces had kidnapped notable British officers and a member of the princely family meant those 144 individuals were exchanged for their safety. This is so idiotically repetative, I'll refrain from posting and stop correcting all your mistakes and distortions all the time.

Chuck Norton What do you want to bet that "reasonable" gun control laws where used to disarm the victims before they were killed. I just looked it up - It was article 166 of the penal code. Gun laws almost always precede genocides.

Mustafa Ka  It is not surprising that no Armenian touches at why they vehemently reject to bring their  evidences in historical commissions made up of Armenian and Turkish historians in addition to historians from  third countries (as it was suggested to Armenia by the Turkish prime minister in 2005), why they do not go to court and why they falsified documents and depend on lies; if all the scholars of the world, including the international scholars of genocide, support their thesis of genocide and and if they are very disturbed because of vehement reject of your genocide thesis by the Turkish government and the Turks.   And here is the rest of the forgeries the Armenian thesis depend (for 1-5 see comments 58):   6) A quote attributed to Adolf Hitler in which he purportedly responded to a query about his planned annihilation of European Jewry, by quipping: ?Who, after all, speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians, on August 22, 1939, a few days prior to his invasion of Poland (Obersalzberg speeches). Contrary to Richard Hovannisian and other Armenians, the Nuremberg transcripts through their preservation of U.S.-29 (798-PS), U.S.-30 (1014-PS), and the notes of Admiral Boehm (which are corroborated by the relevant passages from the diary of General Halder), in no way authenticate the infamous Hitler quote. On the contrary, by establishing the actual texts of Hitler s Obersalzberg speeches they demonstrate that the statement is conspicuously absent from Hitler s remarks. The assertion that Hitler made a reference to the Armenians in any context whatsoever is without foundation. (Heath W Lowry, The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians, Political Communication and Persuasion. Vol 3, No 2, 1985 Crane, Russak & Company Inc. http://www.tetedeturc.com/home/spip.php?article565According to the Armenians the speech had been introduced as evidence to the Nuremberg Tribunal (L3 document, USA-28 document (www/cwporter/com/gl3.htm.) which was defined as forgery (David Irving, ?Nuremberg: The Last Battle?, 1996, p.100). A certificate dated, 25 June 1948 signed by Paul A Joosten, General Secretary of the International Military Tribunal states that L3, USA-28 Photostat document submitted as evidence has been withdrawn, in accordance with Rule 10 of the Tribunal but held in the National Archives. Mr Carlos Porter, who found these documents made the following important warning: Note: This translation attempts to retain the style and punctuation of the original, which is not correct in German: full space before colons and commas, no full space before following word. The document contains not one single sharp S (§ ) a standard letter in the German alphabet. C.Porter. 7) The most dramatic lie is about the outcome of the Armenians who were relocated. Because the majority of these Armenians returned to their homes. Because, on December 18, 1918, a law which let the Armenians return to their homes and claim their properties was issued by the Ottoman State. Here are non-Ottoman evidences: *In a report prepared by the Armenian Patriarchate in 1921, the Armenians who lived on the Ottoman territory in Anatolia, Middle East and those who returned to their previous locations were shown as 644 900. It was added that the Armenians who became Muslim, who were hidden and who did not encourage to return their homes were not included but they were assumed to be 20 000 (US ARCHIVES NARA, Mikrofilm No.T1192, Roll8; Department of State Papers 860).   * In a report presented by the English Black Sea Forces Intelligence Department to the War Cabinet, it was reported that the Armenian population in Anatolia including Istanbul and Edirne was 773 430 in 1914 and it was 658 900 in 1919, excluding that of Erzurum (UK ARCHIVES, WO 158/933, No:5796,1,s.3).   The Armenians who returned to their homes joined to Entente Powers and fought against the Turks/Muslims: *A decision made by The American Committee for the Independence of Armenia which was presented to the Lausanne Conference on January 16, 1923: As the minister Bellet declared, the Armenian legionelles joined to France after being promised that autonomy would be introduced to Cilicia; so they occupied Cilicia in 1918 (carrying the flag of France) . (US ARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4. 860J.01/562). *The report of Pallavici, Istanbul ambassador of  Austria-Hungary, sent to Ottokor Grafen Czernin on February 9, 1918: The Armenian bands  who fought nearby the Russian armies in Caucausia, misbehaved the Turkish people and Turks in Platana (district between Erzincan and Trabzon) were mass killed? (German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, No: 13/P.B, Konstantinopel. Wien). *A news from Norddeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, dated February 14, 1918: The Armenian bands  have been misbehaving Ottoman people barbarously and brutally in districts where the Russian retreated in Caucasia (German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, Der Weltkrieg R. 20145, Bd.279; Norddeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, 14-02-1918).

freakshow Mustafa, The answer to your question is that: When the majority of independent, recognized genocide scholars confirm that that 1915 events by Turks against Armenians were in fact genocide, there is nothing left to debate. The real questions is why is the Turkish government afraid of the events leading up to the horrible demise of the Ottoman Empire? Really now, if the Ottomans who reinvented themselves into Turkey were not ashamed of their immediate past or felt guilty of their  final acts, then why did the change their alphabet, language and identities? Sounds like they were trying to prevent being charged with crimes that they committed.

common_sense The fact that there is a "debate" here about a historical fact is exactly what the Turkish Foreign Ministry is hoping to accomplish by funding blogs like this. Wise up people, put your energy in a blog that truly nurtures healthy debate rather than promote an hidden agenda. my two cents

nemorino As Washinton Post  announced on july 5   that  after  the forced   resignation of dr.Donald Quataert from  the  chair of turkish studies who recognize the genocide of Armenian people.His colleagues have been shocked by the pressure of Nabi Sensoy Ambassador of Turkey in Washinton.The Ambassador told him he must issue a retraction of his book review  or step down.It's concerning Donald Bloxham's book,"The Great Game of Genocide.Quataert wrote that the slaughter of Armenians has been elephant in the room of Ottoman studies he said the events met the United Nations definition of the word.Most  of   the colleagues   of  Quataert  resigned( Fatma Gocek Marci Patton Resat Kasaba and Kemal Silay)from the institute of Ottoman studies at Georgetown University.As you see Turkish  state         policy of falsifications  doomed to failure."The shameful act of Armenian Genocide and Turkish Identitiy" The new study of Taner Akcam proves orgenised character  of the extermination of Armenians by  Ottoman Turkey at state level.Akcam used mainly ottoman and Western archives.It's a matter of time  the    International recognition of Genocide -more than 25 country recognised Armenian Genocide .EU Parlement recognised it.United Nations sub-commisions report by Benjamin Whiteker in 1985 defined it  as  Genocide in spite of turkish interference(state).Until 1988 Armenians of diaspora were alone in there fight for historical justice.But things changed now Armenia also fights for international recognition of genocide quite normal after all 50% of population of Armenia are origineted from Western Armenia Van Mush Sassoun etc.But the most important thing is that more and more turkish historians realize that there has been a Genocide.For Turkish denyers  they are the biggest danger as it was Hrant Dink killed by Turkish criminal state.

Mustafa Ka Freakshow, Genocide is the greatest crime of humanity and International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. As you see, there is no citation of international scholars of genocide. So, what you should do first is to apply to international courts and then let these international scholars of genocide or other scholars who support your thesis be listened there. [It is also striking that Tessa Hoffmann who is one of the international scholars of genocide, was listened as a witness, in the trial of Dogu Perincek in Switzerland in March 2007 and she had to admit that  she printed the painting of  Russian artist Vasili Vereshchagin entitled ‘The Apotheosis of the Franco-Prussia War of 1871, depicting a mass of skulls which is displayed in Russian Painting Gallery,  as if it were the photograph of 1915 Armenian genocide, in the cover of a pamphlet used to introduce a conference entitled ‘Der Volkermord and den Armenien vor Gericht  (The Armenian Genocide on Trial). Thus, as an international scholar of genocide she admitted her forgery, herself] http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/scholars.htm So, it is still hard to understand why the Armenians and INTERNATIONAL SCHOLARS OF GENOCIDE spent effort to falsify documents, like the aforementioned forgeries? 

Freakshow Mustafa, Do want Armenians and Turks to debate this or Armenians to prosecute their claims against Turkey in court? You are confused my friend and once someone calls you out as a phony, your position becomes as transitory as Sahara sands in a storm. In a court of law, it would be a matter of judicial notice that Turks committed genocide against Armenians. Do you even know what your position is? You appear to be very confused.

Freakshow That should read: Do you want Armenians and Turks to debate this or Armenians to prosecute their claims against Turkey in court?

Hally "In a court of law, it would be a matter of judicial notice that Turks committed genocide against Armenians. " Hahaha!  What a joke.  More huff and puff and bluff from the grand Armenian genocide propaganda machine. Please tell us on what basis a court will take "judicial notice" of guilt for a crime that has never been proven in a court of law. Freakshow, you are too too funny.

freakshow Facts and propositions of generalized knowledge that are so universally known that they cannot reasonably be the subject of dispute. A court can take judicial notice of general knowledge so universally known that they can't resonably be disputed. A court may also take judicial notice of commonly known facts with the court's territorial jurisdication that can't be reasonably disputed. And it may also take notice of such facts that can't be reasonably disputed and which are capable of an immediate and accurate determination by sources of reasonably indisputable accuracy.    Haha, funny, Turkey loses the debate in public opinion and in court.

Hally Hah, such baloney.  Do you even believe yourself? An example of a "fact" that a court may take "judicial notice" of is something like:  July 7, 2008 was a Monday. Guilt, however, is a "legal conclusion".  It is not a fact.  Hence, it doesn't qualify for "judicial notice" and second, "criminal guilt" has to be established with credible evidence in a court of law.  Falsified and forged documents and public opinion are not credible evidence.  Duh. Your arguments are only flush-worthy. If you're a lawyer, your license should be revoked for not knowing something so basic as the difference between a fact and a legal conclusion, but then again, what else could one expect from someone who chooses to call themselves "freakshow"?

nemorino Lie told 100 times equals The Truth.that's the Turkish culture of telling the history.-   International mass media was misinformed by the Turkish propaganda machine.OSCE PA  resolution mentions neither Armenia nor Armenian Genocide.The OSCE PA committee focused on the problems of transparency.In particular the committe on human rights and democrasy cosidered normalization of relations between the organization's member.The author of the resolution is a Czech but not a Turkish parliamentarian.In contrast to the Turkish claims, Article 60 of OSCE communique stressed the importance of reconciliation of each nation with its "past in an open and public process," meaning Turkey should come to terms with its crimes against humanity( the mass killing of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians,Pontians, and Kurds)In a further blow to Turkish governement's "historians commission" proposal "to study the Armenian Genocide," the OSCE(page45,article12) said the organization "strongly encourages all parliaments to adopt acts regarding recognition of the (Ukranian Famine)Holodomor,"thus coming to the conclusion that history should not be left  only to historians, and that parliments should adopt resolutions/acts recognising such crimes against humanity,"the statement says.Once again the Turkish government is stretching  the truth and is distributing  false news .in its  desperate and futile denial policy of the Armenian Genocide.As regards the painting of Vasili Verashagin which describes human skulls and crossbones it's a allegory of human  savagery.The real photos taken by Armin Wegner  who was german officer in Ottoman Turkey  in 1915 has been the witness of exterminations of childrens of womens and elder peoples during the deportations and within the concentrations camps    in Syrian desert.In spite of German and Turkish military censorship Wegner was able in secret to take photos during the Genocide of 1915.Hunderds of photos and notices made  by  Armin Wegner      are now at the disposal of   the  historians  or who  are interested by the truth.                   

freakshow Just like you could not dispute that today was a Monday, it is indisputable and thus judicially noticeable that the events of 1915 committed by Turks against Armenians was 'genocide'. Why? Because it cannot be disputed just like today's date. The Armenian genocide is a historical fact that is indisputable. Turkey helped prevent the attribution of guilt to certain of its members who were actors in the Ottoman Empire by adopting a new alphabet and new language that helped these criminals change their identity. Just like a rose by any other name is still a rose, a criminal by any other name is still a criminal.

Lucrèce The Armenian genocide is a historical fact that is indisputable. No, the so-called "Armenian genocide" is a lie. "I am less than impressed by the unanimous vote of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Armenian case ‘was one of the major genocides of the modern era.’ The great majority of these self-proclaimed experts on Ottoman history have never set foot in an archive or done any other original research on the subject in question. […] Distinguished scholars of Ottoman history like Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Bernard Lewis, and Andrew Mango have rejected the appropriateness of the genocide label for those occurrences. Yet, ignoring this formidable array of learned opinion, Armenians and their supporters among so-called genocide scholars continue to assert with superb arrogance that the Armenian genocide is incontrovertible fact and ‘established history’ that can be denied only by lackeys of the Turkish government or morally obtuse individuals. Unless and until there is a change in this attitude, I see little hope for ending this almost century-old conflict." Guenter Lewy, professor emeritus at Massachussetts University: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/genocide–11140?page=all "The home of the late Professor Stanford Shaw of the University of California-Los Angeles was firebombed in retaliation for his academic courage in disputing the Armenian genocide claim. Like Benito Mussolini, Armenians believe truth is an assertion at the head of a figurative bayonet.  In parts of Europe, disbelief in the Armenian genocide allegation is a crime on par with Holocaust denial. But the Holocaust was proven before the Nuremburg Tribunal with the trappings of due process. Armenians, in contrast, have forgone bringing their genocide allegation before the International Court of Justice because it is unsupported by historical facts. In contrast to open Ottoman archives, significant Armenian archives remain closed to conceal evidence of Armenian terrorism and massacres. If the resolution's proponents had done their homework and put aside religious bigotry, they would have reached the same conclusion as author and Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University: '[T]he point that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale.' Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America in a videotaped interview for a documentary on the Armenian Revolt clucked: 'We don't need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically.' "Bruce Fein, http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/oct/16/armenian-crime-amnesia/

Lucrèce Do want Armenians and Turks to debate this or Armenians to prosecute their claims against Turkey in court? The position of the Armenian propagandists is not clear about this point. Some of this, especially the dashnaks, use legal terms. Many of this are obsessed by the comparison with the Nazis case.

nemorino First of all Bernard Lewis has been condemned by French   court for denying the Genocide in 1995.So giving the example of a denyer as someone  who   so-called   "established" non-existence of armenian Genocide proves your ignorance or your naivety.In the first edition of his study  in 1961  (The  Emergence of Modern Turkey) Bernard Lewy calls  a Holocaust the genocide of 1915  in wich died one and half millions  Armenians he said.In the second edition also which has been transleted into  Hebrew.So why did   he   change his  position about the Armenian Genocide.To that  question the answer came from 2 Israelian historians  who written an article in Haaretz 0n 5 septembre 1997.Israel Gershoni and Shlomo Zand explained that "it's the  general   tendancy of sionist historians keeping hegemonia in  the israelian  culture.The unicity of the Shoah became the goal of a policy wich is destineted to isolete and to neutrlize all similar crimes in order  to preserve  the jewish as being  the unique victime of Genocide in 20 century.It's  an absurd attitude and  anti-historique".The Israelians historians concluded.Bernard Lewys is an American of Jewish origin. 

sunset eagle ANCC calls to put an end to Turkish lies and misinformation 07.07.2008 17:12 GMT+04:00 /PanARMENIAN.Net/ Turkish politicians and some Turkish media outlets are once again trying to mislead the international community with false news stories and by distorting facts on the Armenian Genocide, says a statement issued by the Armenian National Committee of Canada (ANCC). Hurriyet, a leading Turkish daily, published (July 2) a news story under the ?Turkish Thesis Regarding 1915 Events Adopted by OSCE? headline, which quoted Alaattin Buyukkaya, head of the Turkish group at the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) Parliamentary Assembly in Astana, Kazakhstan. According, to Buyukkaya, the OSCE adopted the ?motion submitted by the Turkish delegation. He also said: "The motion underlines that past events like genocide should be recognized only after historians carried out a detailed research in all kinds of archives.? The news item tried to link the so-called motion to the Turkish government proposal ?to the Armenian government? for ?the establishment of a joint historical commission composed of historians and other experts from both sides to study together the events of 1915 and to open the archives of Turkey and Armenia, as well as the archives of all relevant third-party countries and share their findings publicly.? ?The Hurriyet "news" couldn?t be farther from the truth. The OSCE did not adopt any motion on the Armenian Genocide during its meeting. In its final declaration, under Chapter Three (page 8), the OSCE adopted a series of measures and recommendations regarding the ?collapse of communism in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Republics and particularly the profound psychological effects of these changes.? In Article 61 the organization clearly parallels the above events to the ?psychological and societal? effects to the ?end of the Second World War.? ?In contrast to the Turkish claims, Article 60 of OSCE communique stressed the importance of ?reconciliation? of each nation with its ?past in an open and public process,? meaning Turkey should come to terms with its crimes against humanity (the mass killing of Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, Pontians, Arabs, and Kurds).? ?In a further blow to Turkish government?s ?historians commission? proposal ?to study the Armenian Genocide,? the OSCE (page 45, article 12) said the organization ?strongly encourages all parliaments to adopt acts regarding recognition of the [Ukrainian Famine] Holodomor,? thus coming to the conclusion that history should not be left only to historians, and that parliaments should adopt resolutions/acts recognizing such crimes against humanity,? the statement says. ?Once again the Turkish government is stretching the truth and is distributing false news in its desperate and futile denial policy of the Armenian Genocide,? stated Aris Babikian, ANCC executive director. He called on the international community and media to put an end to the Turkish government?s misrepresentations, lies, and PR spin." The ANCC leader said: "If the Turkish government has the chutzpah to twist current events and the deliberations of international organizations, it is no wonder that it would be engaged in the denial of the Armenian Genocide which took place 92 years ago." Babikian called on the Turkish government to heed the OSCE advice and come to terms with its dark chapter of history and recognize the Armenian Genocide. He said: "Turkey should put an end to this deceit and charade which it has been involved in for the past 92 years.

Armenian Truth ANCC, ANCA, the Dashnaks and all Armenian terrorist organizations like ASALA, JCAG, etc. can keep screaming genocide until they go deaf, blind and dumb. That will never change the fact that Ottoman Armenians were incited to violence against the Ottoman Empire by the British and Russia, who used Armenians to achieve their own objectives. Nor will it ever change the fact that the relocation of Ottoman Armenians out of the vicinity of the front against the invading Russian army was a valid national security measure to put an end to Armenian sabotage of  Ottoman military efforts to defend the Empire. Rather than taking responsibility for their leadership's catastrophic failures (grossly over-estimating Armenian military might, support by Russia, Britain and France for the Armenian cause,  and grossly under-estimating Ottoman military strength and the resolve of Ottoman's to fight for their homeland), Armenians now call the failure armed insurrection genocide. Some learn from their mistakes, and then, there are Armenian genocide proponents...

Dakster Lucrèce, tu n'est pas sérieux de citer Guenter Lewy, franchement, tu discrédite le International Association of Genocide Scholars et tu réfères à Lewy??? Ok, the the IAGS is not good enough. How about "126 Holocaust Scholars Affirm the Incontestable Fact of the Armenian Genocide" right here: http://chgs.umn.edu/histories/turkishArmenian/publicPetitions.html Let me guess, still not credible right? Oh yes, I forgot Guenter Lewy says... Ok then, how about this: " The Permanent Peoples' Tribunal was founded in June 1979 by Senator Lelio Basso of Italy to make up for the moral and political shortcomings of states as instruments for the achievement of justice. It grew out of the "International Foundation for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples" which had been founded in 1976. The PPT met in official session in Paris from April 13 to 16, 1984, to examine the grievances of the Armenians, precisely because of the long silence of the great western democracies (with the exception of France) which maintain relations of all sorts with the Turkish state. For it is not the Turkish people, but the Turkish state and its constant attitude with regard to the events of 1915-1916 that was concerned.  In its verdict the Tribunal stated: "There is no doubt regarding the reality of the physical acts constituting the genocide. The facts are clearly proven by the full and unequivocal evidence submitted to the Tribunal" that the Young Turk government was guilty of this crime not subject to statutory limitations and that 'The Armenian genocide is also an 'international crime' for which the Turkish state must assume full responsibility, without using the pretext of any discontinuity in the existence of the state to elude that responsibility. This responsibility implies first and foremost the obligation to recognize officially the reality of the genocide and the consequent damages suffered by the Armenian people; the United Nations Organization and each of its members have the right to demand this recognition and to assist the Armenian people to that end. MEMBERS OF THE PERMANENT PEOPLES' TRIBUNAL COMPRISING THE JURY FOR THE SESSION ON THE GENOCIDE OF THE ARMENIANS INCLUDE: MADJID BENCHIKH OF ALGERIA, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, UNIVERSITY OF ALGIERS.  GEORGE CASALIS OF FRANCE, THEOLOGIAN, WRITER AND PROFESSOR, PROTESTANT INSTITUTE OF THEOLOGY, FRANCE. HAROLD EDELSTAM OF SWEDEN, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO CHILE AND ALGERIA.  RICHARD FALK OF THE UNITED STATES, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY.  KEN FRYE OF AUSTRALIA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, AUSTRALIA.  ANDREAS GIARDINA OF ITALY, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, UNIVERSITY OF ROME.  SEAN MACBRIDE OF IRELAND, JURIST, PRESIDENT INTERNATIONAL PEACE OFFICE,NOBEL PEACE PRIZE RECIPIENT. LEO MATARASSO OF FRANCE, JURIST AND LAWYER AT THE PARIS BAR.  ADOLFO PEREZ ESQUIVAL OF ARGENTINA, NOBEL PEACE PRIZE RECIPIENT, COORDINATOR, PEACE & JUSTICE SERVICE.  JAMES PETRAS OF THE UNITED STATES, PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY, STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK. FRANCOIS RIGAUX OF BELGIUM, PROFESSOR, FACULTY OF LAW, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF LOUVAIN.  AGIT ROY OF INDIA, ECONOMIST AND JOURNALIST.  GEORGE WALD OF THE UNITED STATES, BIOLOGIST, HARVARD UNIVERSITY, NOBEL PRIZE RECIPIENT."

Dakster I know, I know, still not as credible as Guenter... Lastly, how about Lemkin himself, a jurist, the father of the Genocide Convention and the man who coined the term "genocide". He fought to bring to justice the perpetrators of "acts of barbarity (acts of extermination)  and vandalism (destruction of the culture and works of art)".  His motivation  to pursue this work for 3 decades was based on his moral outrage of these acts of barbarity the Ottomans inflicted on the Armenians (and, later, the Assyrians by Irakies and the Jews, of course, in WW2): "Raphael Lemkin then explains to the moderator how his interest in genocide began: “I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians; and after[wards] the Armenians got a very rough deal at the Versailles Conference because their criminals were guilty of genocide and were not punished. You know that they [the Ottoman Turks] were organized in a terroristic organization which took justice into its own hands. The trial of Talaat Pasha in 1921 in Berlin is very instructive. A man (Soghomon Tehlirian), whose mother was killed in the genocide, killed Talaat Pasha. And he told the court that he did it because his mother came in his sleep ... many times. Here, …the murder of your mother, you would do something about it! So he committed a crime. So, you see, as a lawyer, I thought that a crime should not be punished by the victims, but should be punished by a court, by a national law.” (CBS tv interview - 1949) Still not good enough, I presume, that the person who invented the term genocide based  his work  and dedicated his life to Justice because of his complete disgust of the massacres of the Armenians.

Dakster Let me leave you with this link from the NY Times regarding the Armenian Genocide (I know, I know, NY Times is totally corrupt and non credible, their only goal in life is to bash Turkey...): http://www.nytimes.com/ref/timestopics/topics_armeniangenocide.html A couple of interesting facts they mention is that "The New York Times covered the issue extensively — 145 articles in 1915 alone by one count — with headlines like “Appeal to Turkey to Stop Massacres.” The Times described the actions against the Armenians as “systematic,” “authorized, and “organized by the government.” and that : "The University of Minnesota’s Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies has compiled figures by province and district that show there were 2,133,190 Armenians in the empire in 1914 and only about 387,800 by 1922. " Well what can you do? Contradicting the 'eminent' Guenter Lewy is so difficult, he might just be the best historian of all times.... Please guys, at least say that by admitting the genocide, Turkey would put itself in a very liable position, with reparation costs reaching astronomical amounts of $, or that politically, the country is not ready for such an admission, or something. But stop trying to say it never happened or that it wasn't genocide, it's embarrassing to read and it's embarrassing to yourself. Guenter Lewy...t'es pas sérieux mon vieux...

Lucrèce Lucrèce, tu n’est pas sérieux de citer Guenter Lewy, franchement, tu discrédite le International Association of Genocide Scholars et tu réfères à Lewy??? On a gardé les vaches ensemble, pour que vous vous croyiez autorisé(e) à me tutoyer ? How about "126 Holocaust Scholars Affirm the Incontestable Fact of the Armenian Genocide" right here To be a specialist of the Shoah is not enough for be autority in Ottoman history. All this 126 scholars have never set foot in an archive about the Ottoman history, and never produce one publication about this subject. Have they even read one book of Bernard Lewis, Justin McCarthy, Stanford Jay Shaw, Robert Mantran, Malcolm E. Yapp or Jeremy Salt? I am not sure. The most funny is that some of this scholars, including Raul Hilberg, praise Guenter Lewy for his book The Nazi Persecution of the Gypsies.

Kemal Dakster, Turks do not accept Armenian genocide claims because they believe in and know the truth.  They have stories about massacres committed against their families by Armenian militias during WWI and will not stop speaking the truth until it is heard.  "it’s embarrassing to read" How so very ultra-sensitive of you.  So spare yourself and stop reading about it. Interesting that you bring up Soghomon Tehlirian.  If you read a little further than the shallow understanding you have, you will learn that Tehlirian was part of a clandestine group called Nemesis, that the assasination and murder of Talat Pasha was premeditated and carefully planned well in advance, and that testimony about "dreams" and so on were all lies on Tehlirian's part to portray himself as mentally deranged so that he could be found innocent by reason of insanity.  Tehlirian, however, was not insane.  Tehlirian was a trained assassin. Lies lies lies, yeah, they're going to get ya .... Anyone remember the song from the 80s?  It should be the theme song of Armenian genocide proponents.

Lucrèce About the murderer Tehlirian: http://www.eraren.org/index.php?Lisan=en&Page=DergiIcerik&IcerikNo=113

Crimson Politics This is very interesting indeed. I agree with Michael, the whole idea that the tolerant Ottoman Empire committed genocide on a mass scale after 600 years of tolerance is absurd. Let's not forget the amount of Turks that were massacred by Armenian Revolutionary Federation forces. This is fairly common knowledge.