2012 May 21 |
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http://www.theatlanticright.com/2008/06/14/turkey-is-the-new-israel-turks-the-new-jews/
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This shows why me and people like me – who are quite positive about Turkey – distrust and dislike Armenian activists as much as we do: update: video put in. My apologies.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM9KiSWoXzk[/youtube]

Hilarious that the guy speaks about America, while standing in front of a sign of a strictly Armenian organization, and dedicated to a completely different country.

Listen to the way this person looks at foreign policy. Seemingly, the ‘Jews’ have been replaced by the Turks. It are no longer the Jews who are ‘crafting US foreign policy,’ it are Turks. It is not longer ‘Israel’ that decides what the US does, it is ‘Turkey.’

Turks are the new Jews, Turkey the new Israel.

Listen to the hatred and anger in this man’s voice. This anger and hatred is all too real. He’s an exponent of the hate campaign, which has been going on for decades now, in the Armenian Diaspora.

What’s even more hilarious is that the youth activist blames those who are on the Turkish side of the debate – of the truth in other words – always try to personally smear their opponents. Frequent readers of this blog know that the situation is somewhat different; the exact opposite I’d say.

They also constantly talk about ‘genocide denial’ as if their opinion is universally considered to be the truth. This is, quite simply, not true. Approximately 50% of historians say that what happened does not constitute genocide, while the other (approximately) half says it does. The most famous and respected historians, such as Bernard Lewis, are on the ‘no-genocide’ side.

But don’t let facts – also the 1.5 million figure – get in the way of the truth, I’d say.

Now, lets talk about hijacking US policy. Who’s trying to do the hijacking here? Turkey, which is simply minding its own business, and working with the US when the two can work together, or Armenian activists who try to get the US to supports its claims after which they want Western governments help them to force the Turkish government to give money and lands to Armenia? Which group is truly trying to influence the foreign policy of another country? The Turks, or Armenia?

What’s also interesting is that they use the words “Turkish government” constantly, as if the Turkish government is behind the ‘no genocide’ side. That is, and they darn well know it, not true. The Turkish government is actually quite passive – sure they invest some money, sure they lobby, but they could do much more. No, most of those who speak out about this issue are individual Turks themselves, and others who disagree with the Armenian take on the events of 1915.

Of course, these Armenian activists know it. But still they use ‘Turkish government’ constantly. Why? Two reasons:

1. It’s a way to discredit all those who dare disagree with them. Those who disagree with them are simply ‘paid agents’ of the Turkish government.

2. It’s a way for them to hide their hatred and racism for anything Turk. If they would say ‘Turks’ (and their allies) instead of ‘Turkish government,’ they would quickly be accused of racism. And they know it. So, instead of saying what they truly mean, they talk about the Turkish government.

Lastly, it has to be pointed out that if there’s one country involved in this affair, it’s Armenia itself. Armenia has been assisting and helping Armenian activists in the West for decades. Armenia’s policy is still that it wants to steal lands from Turkey, and it wants to do so – not by force, for they cannot beat the Turks by force – by forcing foreign governments into accepting their claims. Those governments then have to put pressure on Turkey to give into the Armenian demands.

In other words, the Armenian government itself actually played and continues to play an important role in the genocide claims and campaign.

UPDATE

Read this article by an Armenian lady to understand how much so many Armenians hate Turks, and how they teach their children to hate Turks. To think of them as savages, animals, and so on. It’s a shocking article.

UPDATE II

A reader sent me the following quote from Edna Petrosyan: “It’s better that I be a dog or a cat, than a Turkish barbarian…”

She recited this part of a hateful poem, after her mother told her to do so. She was quoted in the Los Angeles Times of February 1, 1990.

  1. Posted by Lucrèce
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58371
  2. Posted by Janaan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58384
    Janaan How innocent Armenians portray their lot in order to get their treason labeled as geno-.   However, their leader Garegin Pastermadjean wrote in 1918, how his men of 200,000 fought against the Turkish Army in 1914 onwards.  Pastermadjean of all people was given a seat at the Ottoman Parliament.  Famous Talat Pasha offered him a ministry position in 1914 elections.  What did he do?  He took up arms against the OTtoman Government and sided with their arch enemy - the Russians. It is clear that Armenians tried to take advantage of teh weakest time of teh Ottoman Empire and grab some land for themselves.  They tried to get rid of the Muslims majorty.  France, Britain and Russia who were at war with the Turks over land, encouraged ethnic turmoil with the Armenians. How can anyone turn blind to Armenians killing Turks to call it a geno of the Armens?  Double standards is the only explanation.  Religious bias comes to mind.  Everyone knows by now, that Armenians breath hatred to anything Turkish.
  3. Posted by Lazlee
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58388
    Lazlee John, It is quite telling that you don't answer a very simple question.  Do you know when the first relocation order issued that you are so willing to quote a passage claiming all was quiet on the Armenian side before then? Or, do you just parrot whatever you think promotes your claims, whether it is true or not? And note this John, I'm a lover of TRUTH more than anything.
  4. Posted by John
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58396
    John Lazlee, You are still dwelling in a time period where the deportations and the massacres had all but finished, we are talking about 1915 while you are insisting on the events of 1918 to justify....1915, that is an odd way of warping time to defend a thesis.   You quote Heath Lowry to try to discredit Morgenthau. Lowry is not an impartial source, as the chair of Turkish studies at Princeton, purchased and funded by the Turkish government, he could not possibly have gone against the wishes of his employer.  I did not quote Morgenthau by the way, to remind you (for the third time) I was quoting David Fromkin. Morgenthau, however, as the ambassador of the United States, had a lot of information at his disposal, that is what ambassadors do, collect information, you can disregard that important factor, but that is how Turks want to play. There are many other sources, be they from field officers or councils stationed around the Ottoman Empire that verify Morgenthau's findings, the extermination of  the Armenians was not a hidden act, there were many witnesses, friends as well as foes of the Turks. The US Council, Leslie A. Davies, who was stationed in Harput from 1914 to 1917, was there in the thick of things and he reported back what he personally witnessed. His report is published in a book called "The Slaaughter House Province" Edited by Susan Blair, Caratzas publications, New York, 1989. You should have a look at this book. It is funny for a supposedly informed person you also disregard German sources, friends and military allies of Turkey, that in reality do more damage to the Turkish government denial than anything Morgethau says about this issue. I am a lover of TRUTH also Lazlee, but if there is any parroting happening here it's not coming form me, on the other hand your heavy reliance on exclusively Turkish-connected sources doesn't do much to your or this gazette's credibility. There is hair raising German archival material collected and published in http://www.armenocide.de you should check it out also. Armenians had nothing to do with these German high ranking officers in Ottoman Turkey sending their reports to Berlin. It is due to these archives that the German Bundestag was moved to face reality in 2005 and condemn "the mass killing of Armenians", going further they have asked for forgiveness from the Armenian nation for not doing enough at the time to stop the central authorities from pursuing such policies. Talk about a heavy indictment that Turkey cannot escape from.
  5. Posted by human
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58412
    human And indeed, deleted by the editor-in-chief. Take your accusations and smears somewhere else 'human' (why do you use a Turkish Daily News e-mail address?) and... for the argument 'a Turks disagrees,' well, congratulations. That proves nothing. Only a complete debating-lunatic would accept that as an 'argument.'
  6. Posted by nevber
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58432
    nevber "On June 12, 2008, the Swedish parliament, with an overwhelming vote of 245 - 37 rejected to a resolution that characterized the 1915 Armenian case as genocide.  The decision of the Swedish Parliament followed long deliberations. The resolution was rejected because: (1) the United Nations has never accepted the Armenian case as genocide; (2) the United Nations Genocide Convention does not apply retroactively to events before 1948; (3) there is substantial disagreement between experts regarding the events of 1915; (4) there is concern by experts about broadening the definition of genocide and overlapping with other crimes; and, (5) a legislature should not intervene in foreign affairs and disturb the Turkish domestic process."
  7. Posted by William
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58434
    William Deleted, and an instaban by Michael van der Galien. We're a bit tired of accusations that we're being paid by the Turkish government.
  8. Posted by Kemal
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58440
    Kemal It's curious that you avoid answering a very simple question John.   For the third time, when did the first relocation order issue? Do you avoid answering because you know you are about to get slammed for a statement you made/quoted that is so easily proven false?
  9. Posted by Kemal
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58445
    Kemal And John, I'm dwelling on the time period BEFORE the first relocation order issued and trying to get you to tell me when that was--which you continue to studiously avoid. What I'm focusing on ocurred LONG before 1918.  Deliberately misrepresentation of an opponent's argument only work to diminish your credibility. And, John, if we were to discount all historians funded by Armenians, Armenian genocide proponents would be left with NADA, NOTHING, BUPKIS.  And, you can start by tossing Taner Akcam, Dadrian and Hovahanissian into the rubbish bin.  Got it?  Your blatant hypocrisy also detracts from your credibility.
  10. Posted by Lucrèce
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58452
    Lucrèce Morgenthau, however, as the ambassador of the United States, had a lot of information at his disposal, that is what ambassadors do, collect information, you can disregard that important factor, but that is how Turks want to play. There are many other sources, be they from field officers or councils stationed around the Ottoman Empire that verify Morgenthau’s findings, the extermination of  the Armenians was not a hidden act, there were many witnesses, friends as well as foes of the Turks. The US Council, Leslie A. Davies, who was stationed in Harput from 1914 to 1917, was there in the thick of things and he reported back what he personally witnessed. His report is published in a book called "The Slaaughter House Province" Edited by Susan Blair, Caratzas publications, New York, 1989. You should have a look at this book. « In their search for evidence the British turned to the United States. […] On July 13 [1921], after an embassy staff member had personally examinated “a selection of reports from United States Consuls on the subject of the atrocities committed during the recent war” and had checked the files for any mention of forty-five Malta detainees accused of outrages against Armenians and other Christians, the ambassador sent a follow-up report, which again was negative: “I regret to inform Your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial at Malta. The reports seen, while furnishing full accounts of the atrocities committed, made mention, however, of only two names of the Turkish officials in question ― those of Sabit Bey and Suleiman Faik Pasha ― and these cases were confirmed to personal opinions of theses officials on the part of writer, no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.” » Guenter Lewy, The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey. A Disputed Genocide, Salt Lake City, University of Utah Press, 2005, p. 126. See also: http://www.ataa.org/reference/deportees-simsir.html The superiors of Morgenthau and Davis have not considered their tales as credible evidence.
  11. Posted by Lucrèce
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58453
    Lucrèce It is funny for a supposedly informed person you also disregard German sources, friends and military allies of Turkey, that in reality do more damage to the Turkish government denial than anything Morgethau says about this issue. The problem is that the "German sources", in the speech of Armenian and pro-Armenian propagandists, are the so-called documents published by Dr. Lepsius. Cem Özgönül has systematically demonstrated the distorsion of Lepsius, compared to the original documents, in federal German archives. http://www.welt.de/print-welt/article205335/Kunst_zwischen_vier_Fronten.html
  12. Posted by JanJan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58456
    JanJan Brief question: Lucrèce, Tully, and you others on here who all claim to be impartial non-Turkish people who just seek the truth. So why have absolutely everything you cited been from either ataa.org, louisville.edu (Justin McCarthy's webpage), tr.gov Turkish government sites, or sites with obviously connections to one side of this issue. You claim to be impartial and just go where the facts tell you, but if you only ever read or refer to one set of sources to give you said facts is it any surprise you maintain the Turkish side is completely right? You'd immediately write off anything coming from an Armenian government webpage or scholar without even looking at it, so why do you so consistently back up everything you say with Turkish sources and their allies? In short, how do you expect us to take you seriously if you behave in a way you'd totally reject coming from the opposite side?
  13. Posted by nevber
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58459
    nevber janjan, your argument makes absolute no sense what so ever! Every side (Turkish or Armenian) have their sources from various groups, organizations, historians, associations etc etc. I could say the same thing about the Armenian side. We could go around and around arguing about whose sources are more legitimate. The fact is, the historical events of 1915 are still debated by many historians and therefore, there is no concrete proof. This maybe too big of a truth for you to swallow…. In-fact, with the new revelations that just came out from the Russian archives, it may actually be proven not to be Genocide after all!!!
  14. Posted by Tully
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58460
    Tully What planet are you from? I've not even made an appearance in this post until now. And haven't had anything to say on the topic for many many weeks, being really bored with all the endless yak yak. I also think that in my case you're confusing impartial with freakin' indifferent. At this point I think both sides of angry arguing activists are a bunch of maroons, and couldn't care much less, as the continual whining and finger-pointing won't bring back a single near-century-dead Armenian or Turk.
  15. Posted by John
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58462
    John Kemal or lazlee or however many names you use, I guess to give the impression of "many" who think the same way. But whatever. What is this with your questioning, if you know the answer then make your point and go on. Again, these are not my words I quote, they are  Fromkin's. I guess I will have to repeat this again soon. Listen, why don't you go to a library and read, for heaven's sake. You, at this point are playing a game.
  16. Posted by Eugenie
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58470
    Eugenie "I’ve not even made an appearance in this post until now" Where did the accusation include the phase "in this post"? Sure you didn't comment in this one but you certainly have in the past and I do seem to recall you saying you are a non-Turk supporter of the Turkish thesis, so I don't see how this is an issue. You seem to have created a technicality and then attempted to snare Jan with it I assume as a way to not have to address their pointed question. Nevber I don't understand what you are saying. It seems clear enough to me that some people here who claim to be impartial in their arguements proceed to use Turkish lobby groups (ATAA), Turkish government (gov.tr), and Turkish-supporter scholars (McCarthy, et al) whenever discussing their non-partial proofs for why Armenians are all wrong. I saw someone just recently in one of these posts today write off all scholars who ever took a cent for Armenians as being automatically inadmissable as scholars, when doing the same to Turkish financially supported scholars would probably decimate those ranks even further! Lewy is just one of numerous who were financially supporter by Turks for their books, articles, etc. It's not even a secret within the historical field but civilians looking at it just has the assumption that everyone works in a vacuum and that if a non-Turk writes something pro-Turk it had nothing to do with connections or support from Turkish sources. I think a financial comparison would show Armenian diaspora resources supporting their scholarship pales in comparison to the Turkish one, namely because the Turkish one is directly funding by a major nation's government while Armenians are just a smattering of wealthy diasporans.
  17. Posted by nevber
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58483
    nevber What difference does it make where the money is coming from??? Plus, I personally donated money in the past and will continue to do so to various organizations that support the Turkish side on the historical developments of 1915. These organizations are independent from the Turkish government and are based in USA. You and your friends need to wake up and smell the coffee...!!! Turks (and people who are pro-Turkey) are organizing independently, because they are sick and tired of lies, smear campaigns, distortion of historical facts, BS articles, suppression of discussions and various other nonsense that goes on in the media and political arena. I have recently joined this blog, but I must say, Armenian Diaspora is like a broken record!  You and your friends are repeating the same thing over and over again... It is becoming extremely boring. Turkish Government this, Turkish Government that... You think we are all agents of an evil government. WRONG!!! we are just single individuals scattered around the world who write their opinions on a blog. Our only commonality is "WE BELIEVE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS A LIE" other then that, none of us know each other or are paid by a secret organization.... GET IT!!!! 
  18. Posted by Lucrèce
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58515
    Lucrèce So why have absolutely everything you cited been from either ataa.org, louisville.edu (Justin McCarthy’s webpage), tr.gov Turkish government sites, or sites with obviously connections to one side of this issue. You claim to be impartial and just go where the facts tell you, but if you only ever read or refer to one set of sources to give you said facts is it any surprise you maintain the Turkish side is completely right? 1) To quote Turkish and pro-Turkish historian is not necessary claim that they are completely right. English is not my mother tongue, and the great majority of my English's teachers were not really wonderfull. I can't, so, to be as precise as I would like. 2) Moreover, say that a historian is Turkish or pro-Turkish don't constitute an argument. You don't explain why Prof. McCarthy, Prof. Simsir, or Prof. Shaw fail to convince.3) The texts of louisville.edu are documents, not publications of Prof. McCarthy. A part of the texts of ATAA's website are also documents. 4) As I believe have already to say, I prefer the Prof. Lewy's conclusions to the Prof. McCarthy's conclusions. But there are most articles by Mr. McCarthy online. After this summary in English, some precisions in French (désolé, monsieur Van der Galiën, je ne recommencerai plus). a) Je n'ai jamais parlé de guerre civile arméno-turque, car cette expression me paraît inappropriée, sauf à Zeytoun en 1914-1915, et à Van pendant la plus grande partie de la guerre. Je n'ai pas parlé de 300 000 morts arméniens, mais de 640-650 000 entre 1914 et 1919 (plus d'autres encore, hélas, de 1919 à 1922, mais c'est difficile de distinguer ce qui relève de l'incurie du gouvernement dachnak et des actes de revanche commis par des musulmans). L'insistance de M. Halacoglu et consorts à maintenir le chiffre de 300 000 a le don de m'agacer. De même que m'agace le manque de nuances que manifeste M. McCarthy dans son texte The First Shot, qui aurait pu être excellent, vu son érudition remarquable, et qui n'est que moyen, à cause de son désir évident de faire plaisir à l'auditoire. Me présenter comme un défenseur intransigeant des thèses officielles turques, ou même comme un perroquet de M. McCarthy, est donc immérité. Quand M. McCarthy présente des arguments valables, va pour M. McCarthy. C'est tout. b) Je m'amuse de vous voir faire diversion avec l'origine de mes références, alors que vos petits camarades citent sans hésiter les gros mensonges de M. Dadrian, voire de M. Balakian. Vous n'y avez pas trouvé grand-chose à redire.
  19. Posted by Lucrèce
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58516
    Lucrèce Armenians are all wrong Where I have said that all the Armenians historians, from the origins until today, are completely wrong? Where I have critized Louise Nalbandian (RIP), for example? In the official Website of Hunchakian party (Australian branch), Ms. Nalbandian's book, The Armenian Revolutionary Movement is largely quoted, and it's very good: http://www.hunchak.org.au/aboutus/historical_nalbandian.html This Webpage is, unintentionally, a confirmation of some Turkish claims. The ATAA is not a lobby, unlike the ANCA and the AAA, but only a federation of association. The article from a official Turkish Website is written by a non-Turkish, Prof. Stanford Jay Shaw, and is founded on a serious and in-depth study in various archives. I will never quote the article by Prof. Halacoglu, in the same e-book ("Realities behind the relocation"), because I desagree on important points with this author, inclunding the number of Armenian deaths during the relocation. Now, could you argue on the points of substance? For example, what are your precise critics against Prof. Shaw's article?
  20. Posted by Tully
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58518
    Tully Where did the accusation include the phase "in this post"? Sure you didn?t comment in this one but you certainly have in the past and I do seem to recall you saying you are a non-Turk supporter of the Turkish thesis, so I don?t see how this is an issue. Your memory is flawed and faulty, as are your reading skills. About the sum total of what I've had to say about the Armenian genocide resolution can be found here and here. Months ago, on Michael's previous blog before he launched this one. I've said a few things about it elsewhere--they do not differ from what I said there. Here, let me amend my previous comment: I've had nothing to say for months on the topic. And when I did have something to say I took no sides, just offered some coherent current political analysis of the flap at the time, and some observations on the historical claims as supported in the historical literature, boht modern and contemperaneous. All of which agreed that a whole lotta people got killed and diaspora'd for being Armenians, that the number was likely less than claimed by one side and more than claimed by the other, and that either way it was an extremely ugly thing and a whole lotta people died.  Which is contentious and pro-Turkish how, again? The only thing you got right is that I'm not a Turk--but since less than 1% of the world population is Turkish, guessing that I'm not Turkish is hardly brain-stretching rocket science. I'm not Armenian either, which also takes no advanced mathematical skills to make a safe bet on.
  21. Posted by Kemal
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #58553
    Kemal John, Since you don't seem to get it or prefer to play stupid, let me spell it out for you. The point is that you quote and cite whatever you find that promotes your position without bothering to verify whether it is true or not. OR John, you quote and cite whatever you find DESPITE the fact that you know it is a FALSE STATEMENT in its entirety. You clearly refuse to answer the question of when the first relocation order issued because you KNOW what you wrote is false and acknowledging the date of the first relocation order will confirm that you pass off as "truth" lies.  So you prefer to pretend you're too stupid to know or do some simple research to find out. That John, is the point.  Also John, most people have at least two names-- a first name and a surname.  Deal with it.
  22. Pingback | Link #59002
    Turkish Forum » Blog Archive » Turkey Is The New Israel, Turks The New Jews [...] Source: http://poligazette.com/2008/06/14/turkey-is-the-new-israel-turks-the-new-jews [...]
  23. Posted by Kerim
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #74581
    Kerim if there's an Armenian genocide then there's a Turkish genocide as well hows that its OK when use helped the Russians in ww1 against the Turks use back stabbed the Turks and use call it the Armenian genocide its not the people from Armenia that are arguing its the Armenians that live in different countries mostly u.s with there so called Armenian lobby groups trying to demand land from turkey well that's not going to happen and that's the truth keep brain washing your child with hatred against the Turks.. Turks helped allot of people in the past as it turns out Armenians are cowards and that's a fact stop wasting your time!
  24. Posted by Tunc
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #85799
    Tunc Many documents are proving that, before Ottoman Empire sent their army over the Armenians, The Armenians burned many women and children in Turkish mosques. Armenians burned over 1000 Turkish villages before the Ottoman Army sent Armenians back home to the lands where still they are living... I am suprisely asking my self that what Armenians are expecting after burning thousands of Turkish childs, womans and villages? And how still their parents hatred them against the Turks ... In my opinion Armenian parents better to teach their children not to kill any Turkish woman and child othervise Turks will punish them... By the way we Turks has lots of Armenian friends and living with them in piece in Turkey. And all of them are laughing to this funny diaspora lies... :)
  25. Posted by Tunc
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #85954
    Tunc http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/source.cms.docs/devletarsivleri.gov.tr.ce/docs/Yayinlar/35_ermenisoykirim_1.pdf And also here above is the Turkish Government archives, they are open to everyone ,WHY ??? Russian Government doesnt permit Ermenians to open their archive...