2012 May 18 |
 |
http://www.theatlanticright.com/2007/09/11/neo-progressives-and-the-chaos-theory/
0
0
  |   24 comments

Nothing is truly quite as frustrating as watching war critics rush to smear those who may still believe that the United States holds a moral obligation to remain in Iraq.  Kevin Drum has served up something of the sort this week, excoriating anyone who has concerns about leaving a failed state to the tribal warlords, militias and terrorists.  Allow me to introduce you to the theory of the Chaos Hawks:

 Having admitted, however, that the odds of a military success in Iraq are almost impossibly long, Chaos Hawks nonetheless insist that the U.S. military needs to stay in Iraq for the foreseeable future. Why? Because if we leave the entire Middle East will become a bloodbath. Sunni and Shiite will engage in mutual genocide, oil fields will go up in flames, fundamentalist parties will take over, and al-Qaeda will have a safe haven bigger than the entire continent of Europe.

I’m not entirely sure who it is that Drum is speaking of, but as a Liberal who ascribes to this derided theory of his, I certainly don’t believe success in Iraq is an unattainable prospect.  Drum also attacks those who followed Colin Powell’s Pottery Barn theory, apparently arguing that we have no responsibility to maintain a presence in the shattered region.  In his view, history has proven that when occupiers leave the occupied, puppy dogs and sunshine certainly must ensue.  May the historical parallels commence:

Needless to say, this is nonsense. Israel has fought war after war in the Middle East. Result: no regional conflagration. Iran and Iraq fought one of the bloodiest wars of the second half the 20th century. Result: no regional conflagration. The Soviets fought in Afghanistan and then withdrew. No regional conflagration. The U.S. fought the Gulf War and then left. No regional conflagration. Algeria fought an internal civil war for a decade. No regional conflagration.    

Huh?  For pithy’s sake, I won’t even address the ridiculous Algerian example, nor will I even begin to broach the very obvious conflagration that is the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.  The example of Afghanistan is perhaps the most relevant, and should in fact be our working model if we’re to ever understand what’s potentially at stake in Iraq.  In Drum’s mind (and words), the following never happened in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal.  Let’s read it again:

Because if we leave the entire Middle East will become a bloodbath. Sunni and Shiite will engage in mutual genocide, oil fields will go up in flames, fundamentalist parties will take over, and al-Qaeda will have a safe haven bigger than the entire continent of Europe.

Geography and oil fields aside, can anyone dispute that the abandonment of Afghanistan in fact led to precisely these things?  The disorder and fractured state of the pummelled nation led to the growth of the Taliban, who returned order and stability to places such as Kandahar, while also applying arguably the strictest form of Sharia law ever witnessed in the Muslim world.  Oh, there was also that whole Al Qaeda training camps thing. 

Now, a likely retort will be that Al Qaeda, much like the Taliban, is Sunni.  Since Iraq is predominantly Shi’a, well of course Al Qaeda could never truly flourish there.  This assumption is flawed however, since it relies on the unlikely notion that the Shi’a majority could pacify and stabilize the entire war torn country.  A more likely scenario is the one predicted by that bastion of Chaos Hawkery, the editorial board of The New York Times:

Americans must be clear that Iraq, and the region around it, could be even bloodier and more chaotic after Americans leave. There could be reprisals against those who worked with American forces, further ethnic cleansing, even genocide. Potentially destabilizing refugee flows could hit Jordan and Syria. Iran and Turkey could be tempted to make power grabs. Perhaps most important, the invasion has created a new stronghold from which terrorist activity could proliferate.

The Iranian power grab theory is not unfounded, nor is the belief that Turkey might feel it necessary to invade in order to quell PKK activity in Kurdistan.  Fear that the Kurds might take advantage of the turmoil and move their borders southward could lead to even more sectarian conflict, only lessening the likelihood of a national consensus upon American departure.

Point being, Iraq is far too fractured to do anything about AQI.  Their presence is undoubtedly smaller than what is often proclaimed by the administration, but it’s mostly thanks to the presence of American forces that has guaranteed that reality to this point.  When AQI extortionists and thugs are free to once again roam the Anbar Province, who will stop them?  The PSF?  The Tribes?  We’ve already seen that their ability to do this is unlikely without a little help.  With the American military withdrawn, that help will no longer be available.

I’m sure these possible scenarios fall upon deaf ears with the Neo-Progressives.  So intent are they on leaving “Bush’s war” behind, they have completely lost the ability to objectively look at the dire possibilities for the people of Iraq were we to leave too soon.  If you follow their logic, our presence only accelerates the likelihood of genocide, however our departure, if you believe Drum, would of course lessen it.  Make sense? 

I didn’t think so.  Welcome to Isolationism 101.

(Cross posted at my blog)

  1. Posted by Xel
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7950
    Xel I guess the problem is that no one really knows what success is at this point, which means that all the right-wingers promises are rightly ignored. There must be some checkpoint that is reached, to ensure that the Iraqi mistake doesn't actually help US enemies. But for a long while we've only heard threats of bloodbath and emboldening, from the very same people who rejected every responsibility to question the war and improve it. The result? A majority of Americans want a withdrawal table and a following of it no matter what. They have had no gains from Bush's strategies so far, and war supporters can now only waggle a stick or promise carrots, not actually show any carrots. Luckily, ensuring Iraqi safety and saving of lives directly comports with US interests, so if US troops get on that before, say, January perhaps some seeds can take root. I believe it is as unethical to leave Iraq cold turkey as it was to enter the damn place. I and the US voters still know which camp deserves the most blame in the end though, and it definetely isn't Drum's.
  2. Posted by Tom
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7948
    Tom I'd point out that Drum has a point, no regional conflict resulted from Afghanistan. The chaos was limited to Afghanistan itself. And I don't think that the major problem in Iraq is AQI, but the Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias. I suspect AQI is often cited, not because they're a major player in Iraq but because they're hated and great for PR. I'd come up with more, but after 11 hours of class and 5 hours sleep...
  3. Posted by Kevin Sullivan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7953
    Kevin Sullivan But Tom, that is in accurate. The border between Pakistan and Afghanistan became virtually fluid following the weakening of the state in Afghanistan. Not only dos this lead to instability in the country, but it effects the way in which Pakistan can govern. The northern border is virtually its own nation, serving as safe haven and transit to terrorists. Furthermore, Iran had held long territorial disputes with Afghanistan over their shared border, and drug smuggling via Afghanistan through Iran has always been an issue. These are the products of an abandoned, failed state. When her neighbors must alter their own behavior, and increase security to protect against the unstable state, that would be conflagration. Turkey and Saudi Arabia have all hinted at invading to secure their interests once we depart. Iran will no doubt do the same. Drum exaggerates because it serves his own purposes. But he isn't genuinely interested in regional outcomes as far as I can tell, he instead seems more interested in absolving his own conscience.
  4. Posted by C Stanley
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7952
    C Stanley I would say that the consequences of Afghanistan were certainly regional, and I'd also make the case that they were GLOBAL. On this anniversary of the WTC/DC attacks, do we really have to be reminded of that?
  5. Posted by Kevin Sullivan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7951
    Kevin Sullivan Good points, C. Let's not forget that were there no AQ in Afghanistan, the entire world may be quite different today. There probably wouldn't have been an Iraq War, that's for sure. That's conflagration if I've ever seen it.
  6. Posted by mikkel
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7949
    mikkel This argument is all fine and well, but the sad truth is that it's always easy to create What If scenarios after the fact. There is a large chunk of the world that is unstable and wars all the time. No one has the resources (and certainly the locals don't wouldn't support) to occupy all these countries and try to guide them to stability. So Afghanistan was a failed state. So what? There is nothing we could have done directly (you can argue that we could have tried to influence the neighbors to do something or another). They had just spent years kicking out a foreign enemy and the people in charge had absolutely no interest in a central government. Heck, they still don't. The Pakistan influence in Afghanistan was actually a stabilizing effort, they just happened to pick the Taliban to support for various reasons that have to do with internal Pakistani politics. This is an example of what I'm increasingly believing, which is that from a risk/reward standpoint really the only thing that makes logical sense (the vast majority of the time) is to be fully ready to respond to anything but most direct involvement will end up being reactionary. It's just too hard to predict what will happen otherwise -- if the government clamped down as much as they did after 9/11 during the 90s, we might just had a lot of domestic right wing terrorism from all the 'militias" that everyone was worried about. I've said on here before that I think we should change our strategy to try and prevent regional conflagration in Iraq, but that would require setting up explicit international zones and more or less admitting that we don't have any control over what happens elsewhere in Iraq. This is unlikely.
  7. Posted by Kevin Sullivan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7946
    Kevin Sullivan "This argument is all fine and well, but the sad truth is that it’s always easy to create What If scenarios after the fact. There is a large chunk of the world that is unstable and wars all the time. No one has the resources (and certainly the locals don’t wouldn’t support) to occupy all these countries and try to guide them to stability." But mikkel, WE directly contributed to this decline in stability. This isn't about policing the world, it's about responsibility. My point isn't that we should've done something about Afghanistan. Drum specifically cited the country as an example of a de-occupied, war torn region that didn't add to global instability. This argument is absurd, because the Soviet withdrawal led directly to a breeding ground for terrorism, a loosening of borders and global conflict. The regime that brought supposed order to the country invited an invasion in 2001 by harboring and fostering Al Qaeda. I am warming to the idea of pacifying regions that might be easier marks, however I also think you're exaggerating a tad in saying that we must "admit no control" over other portions of the country. We're at war. NO ONE is arguing that the country is Candy Land, no one worth listening to anyway.
  8. Posted by Interested
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7947
    Interested
    I’d come up with more, but after 11 hours of class and 5 hours sleep…
    Thought it was 13 hrs? ya slacker.
  9. Posted by mikkel
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7945
    mikkel The common argument against people focused on the cause of the war is "well it doesn't matter how the war started, because now we're in it and we have to do what's best." But the obvious corollary is "it doesn't matter who started it, but whether we can do anything that will help them band together." If we weren't in Iraq now, and they had the same situation, would anyone think that we could go in (under the same circumstances, i.e. at the behest of the government) and help them reconcile? The no control part isn't about military control obviously, but political control. When every single major political player is either a) actively using their militias to wipe out civilians of other sects and/or fighting with their own sect or b) would definitely cause the start a civil war if they got into power then things aren't looking so hot. We already have "no control" in the entire south or Kurdistan. In the central part, it just keeps ebbing and flowing and we don't have much in the way of tying it in with the rest of the country. (The much heralded anti-AQ Sunnis say that they will just turn around and kill Shiites when they're done with AQ and us if we're in the way.) This is why I think it might be best to give up and create regions where we have total dominance that can act as a safe location. Perhaps we can even try to cultivate future leaders there as well, who knows.
  10. Posted by in2thefray
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7943
    in2thefray Turning Iraq into post war Berlin looks good but in practice risks being three wars instead of one. mikkel :
    This is why I think it might be best to give up and create regions where we have total dominance that can act as a safe location. Perhaps we can even try to cultivate future leaders there as well, who knows.
    isn't that still the Kissinger style of imperialism that helps to create the radicals we end up dealing with sooner or later ?
  11. Posted by mikkel
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7944
    mikkel No the Kissinger style is to support dictators that oppress the people for the sole sake of stability. I'm talking about areas within Iraq that will be under international rule (hopefully NATO) and be closer to the occupation after Germany or Japan where we introduce local governance after 5 years or so but have the final say.
  12. Posted by smintheus
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7940
    smintheus Note by MvdG: personal attacks are not allowed at this blog. If you can't live by these rules, we suggest you don't visit our blog. We don't need readers like that, not even when they have a blog.
  13. Posted by smintheus
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7960
    smintheus Hah. I tore your "arguments" to shreds, and this is the rubbish that you post in its place. Classic dodge, refusing to post a critical comment because it's a "personal attack".
  14. Posted by Kevin Sullivan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7956
    Kevin Sullivan smintheus, my email address is available on the site. I never saw your response, if your response was directed at my post. Feel free to email me whatever you wrote.
  15. Posted by Tom
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7957
    Tom
    Thought it was 13 hrs? ya slacker
    Sorry, 13 hours total, 11 hours in class, 2 hours break. Today, 9 hours in class, 2 hours break. Except that one class is cancelled, so 5 hours break (great time to read case histories). Not bad, lots of material. Would you believe taking a pulse is actually the hardest thing I've encountered? (If you don't believe me, try feeling for the pulse inside elbow, behind the inside of the ankle, and behind the knee But tomorrow I'll be here ALL day! :)
  16. Posted by smintheus
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7958
    smintheus I'm not about to re-compose a detailed rebuttal. I posted it once. Ask the Voice of Moderation to send it to you, if you want it.
  17. Posted by Michael van der Galiën
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7959
    Michael van der Galiën No it will not be send to Kevin. It was a personal attack and added absolutely nothing to the debate. It we want that kind of comments we will let you know.
  18. Posted by Kevin Sullivan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7941
    Kevin Sullivan Always protecting the unhinged, Michael. ;)
  19. Posted by Kevin Sullivan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7942
    Kevin Sullivan But I'm sure those were VERY well "composed" thoughts!
  20. Posted by smintheus
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7937
    smintheus "...added absolutely nothing to the debate" Sure it didn't. This was a debate about whether liberals tout court are incapable of coherent thought regarding Iraqi policy. Voice of moderation, and all that. "...personal attack" Heh; see above. It does appear that my sin consisted of applying the word "hypocrisy" to those who want to send others off to fight the wars they support. Iraq hawks really, really, really do not care to discuss hypocrisy. You're welcome to add your voices of moderation at unbossed.com. We don't silence voices we disagree with.
  21. Posted by Kevin Sullivan
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7938
    Kevin Sullivan Nah, I don't think we'll be wasting time on that. Let's discuss hypocrisy though--let's start a blog where we waste countless words trashing a four star general, a man who did volunteer to go over there, yet trash those who support our efforts out of uniform. The Neo-progressive logic--troops are ok, as long as they speak out against the war, and civilians are ok, as long as they're defeatist cowards. You don't give a damn about the troops bravely fighting a war they intend to win. They're a convenient political volley ball for you, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
  22. Posted by Interested
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7939
    Interested
    Not bad, lots of material. Would you believe taking a pulse is actually the hardest thing I’ve encountered? (If you don’t believe me, try feeling for the pulse inside elbow, behind the inside of the ankle, and behind the knee
    Knee one I've felt before. However not on demand. But yeah, I can get a decent understanding as my current girlfriend is the Manager of an ICU unit, and two previous girlfriends were both Military nurses. (one heavier than the other on the educational side of things like BCLS/ACLS/BCS, and whatever other initials I may chop up into pieces)
  23. Posted by smintheus
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7954
    smintheus "...defeatest cowards" There we are, more of that famed moderation. You can be proud, proud I say, that you never engage in "personal attacks" on this site. I'm overwhelmed by the subtlety and sharpness of your analysis. chiz
  24. Posted by Interested
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #7955
    Interested While Freud (probably) stated wit is anger turned sideways. (Made infamous from the M.A.S.H. episode.) Satirical wit is a highly user defined item which often misses the mark.