2012 May 18 |
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http://www.theatlanticright.com/2007/06/03/whats-american-liberalism-exactly/
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An interesting article at the New York Times (h/t Holly) about American Liberalism. Patricia Cohen writes:

The struggle among conservatives to define their movement in the post-Bush era may be getting more attention these days, but liberal intellectuals and writers are doing some soul-searching of their own. Not only are they trying to figure out what “the L word” now means, but also whether it could become a guiding philosophy in the 2008 presidential campaign by embracing the very ideas that are often seen as its greatest weaknesses: family values and a proactive government.

In several recent and forthcoming books (not to mention in bars and countless blog posts) liberals have been arguing over their past and their future. Al Gore’s new book, “The Assault on Reason,” with its merciless dissection of the Bush presidency, is getting the most attention. Unlike Mr. Gore, however, most of the other liberal authors are focused less on criticizing those in power than in defending and revitalizing their own philosophy.

There is a “new opening for a more robust liberalism,” said Michael Tomasky, editor at large of the liberal magazine The American Prospect. “It’s a very fascinating debate, because it’s also playing out to some extent in the world. Each of the three main Democratic candidates represents a specific and distinct place on the ideological continuum, from center to left, with Hillary Clinton towards the center, John Edwards towards the left, and Barack Obama occupying a still distinct place in between.”
[...]
And so many of the authors offer an analysis of why liberalism, which once defined America’s political life, lost support, and they identify a list of larger theoretical and policy issues that split the liberal camp, including national security, globalization and immigration, and tension between communal interests and individual rights, as well as liberalism’s recent arms-length relationship with religion and traditional values.

If there is a common thread linking the various books, though, it is an adjustment to President Bill Clinton’s famous campaign mantra: “It’s more than the economy, stupid.” Many aren’t satisfied with talking just about paychecks and changing the subject when values are raised, as some liberal and centrist Democrats have suggested. Indeed, they want to adopt the tactics of the Republican strategist Karl Rove and challenge their opponents’ greatest strengths on their own ground.

Again, it is a fascinating article, I encourage all of you to read it.

I find these kind of debates to be the most interesting aspect of politics. Often, blogging becomes summarizing what has happened in the world, and analyzing it in a way thousands of other people can do as well. However, in a debate like this, each voice represents something new, something distinct. Suddenly, one can truly add ideas, one can truly influence the way other people think. That is what it is all about, at least for me. This is essentially why I blog: I hope to learn and be influenced, but I also hope to influence others.

American liberalism and moral values: strange to talk about this. To many, American liberalism means quite the opposite of talking about moral values. Most liberals do not want to talk about the moral values dominating in a specific society, because they consider them to be a private affair, and not the business of the state.

Amy Sullivan believes that the Democratic Party should talk about morality and religion. She writes in “Liberalism for a New Century,” a collection of essays coming out next week, that quite some Republican voters “are not choosing one moral view over another. They are choosing the political party that talks about morality and religion over the party that doesn’t.”

E.J. Dionne (columnist for the Washington Post) writes in the same collection of essays: “American liberalism is, at its core, a set of moral commitments rooted in practical reason.”

Paul Starr, a Pulitzer Prize winner and Princeton sociologist, argues in “Freedom’s Power: The True Force of Liberalism,” that liberals “cannot allow themselves to become merely defensive and oppositional.”

They need, he writes, to “make the case for liberalism’s first principles, to renew the work of liberal innovation and to convince their fellow citizens to make the American project a liberal project once again.”

Patricia Cohen explains that liberals should not be afraid to proclaim that the government can be a force for good. Many Americans are, according to Paul Krugman (New York Times columnist), in favor of universal health care, believe that the government should help “the poorest members of society,” and that the government should protect the environment. These views are, Krugman explains, liberal views.

The debate about what constitutes American liberalism is also fought out in the area of foreign policy.

To noninterventionists the Iraq war provides sorrowful evidence of the dangers of exercising American power around the globe. The liberal internationalism that guided America through the cold war, however, linked security at home with the promotion of democracy abroad, and relied on international institutions and nonmilitary programs to win hearts and minds.

In his essay Mr. Tomasky (who is also editor of Guardian America, the London newspaper’s Web edition in the United States) offers a six-point program in which liberal hawks admit that the Iraq war was a mistake, and liberal doves acknowledge that their dislike of the Bush administration colored their judgment of the war and affirm that “we are not realists,” in the sense that tough-minded realpolitik should not necessarily override moral and humanitarian concerns.

There is also a debate going on in liberal circles about globalization: should globalization be countered, or is globalization inevitable and, in the end, a positive development?

It seems to me that liberals who say that the state does not have anything to do with morality, are a bunch of hypocrites: they do talk about morality when they talk about taxes, helping the poor, etc. Then, suddenly, it is about ‘helping’ the other and not being overly selfish. That is, of course, a moral value. In other words, liberals too pick and choose moral values they believe the goverment should defend, and criticize those who want the government to defend moral values they’re not happy with.

So, the question is, I guess, what kind of morals do liberals believe in and what kind of morals should the government defend?

UPDATE
Pamela answers my question(s) at The Democratic Daily. Go and read her post: she is, in her own words, a proud, JFK liberal.

UPDATE II
Same goes for Libby Spencer. Go and read this post by one of the liberal blogosphere’s finest bloggers (although I actually consider her to be more towards the Center than a pure Liberal… perhaps that’s why I think so highly of her. Just kidding of course).

UPDATE III
Finally, I also encourage you all to read this post by Ron Chusid: a great essay.

P.S.
I will come back at this issue tomorrow. All three, Pamela, Libby, and Ron, raise great points. I will address those issues tomorrow (as I said, this is my favorite part of politics).

  1. Posted by Lthomas
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5714
    Lthomas I have studied History since I was 10 years old. Thats about 48 years now. I have absorbed it and devoured it. I say that to say this. I have mentioned that I believe that two parties in the United States are in flux even as we speak. That we are witnessing a defining moment in history in which we will see the shift of both parties to something unfathomable. The Conservative movement claiming Liberal values:Rudy leading who embraces gay rights, abortion and gun control. The Liberal movement claiming Conservative values: family values and a proactive government. If the Conservatives drop the right and the democrats pick up family values then it is quite conceivable to me that the RR would join the democratic party and their family vaules, proactive government, while the antigod, pro abortion, pro gay rights crowd abandons a family vaules party for the likes of the Republican party. Now this does not have to mean that the terms Liberal and conservative change. NO they are fixed and remain the same. What simply changes is the parties. Liberals become Republicans and Conservatives become Democrats. Very much like the New Deal and the Old Right of the 30's. Stand by. I do believe it is happening in front of our eyes.
  2. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg Historically you might have a good point, however, I do not see that happening right now. I think that a 'true' social conservative might still win the Republican nomination. Also, I do not see the Democratic Party embracing the kind of moral values you talk about.
  3. Posted by Jim Martin
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    Jim Martin lthomas I think this happens on a regular basis. It certainly happened after that watershed year of 1964. The defeat of Goldwater, the Civil Rights Act and then a year later the Voting Rights Act. The parties did a flip flop with the republicans adopting their southern strategy. Where morals are concerned it has to do with ownership. My or our morals as opposed to his or their morals. When morality is used by the government to grant more rights to people it seems to be a good thing. If the government invokes laws to take rights away then it seems to be bad. That's my position. It's just politics and the term morals is just another label.
  4. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg But it's not that simple Jim. Raising taxes to help out the poor, for instance, hurts 'the right of property' of those who have to pay more taxes.
  5. Posted by C Stanley
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    C Stanley Good post and good questions, Michael. I've long felt that liberals SHOULD speak about morality because morality is a pillar of society. Morality does not necessarily mean religious morality. To some extent, I do feel there's some hypocrisy because some liberals feel that morality has no place in political discussions while others say that it does (the "Jesus would have been a liberal" argument). Mainly though, I think that these are two different groups of people: some of them get the fact that morality isn't a dirty word while others are so concerned with their uber view of separation of church and state that they are repulsed by the very thought of 'values' having any place in the discussion. BTW, Michael: I laughed when I saw how you quoted me in the sidebar because I didn't exactly mean that comment to sound the way it does there (but it is pretty funny!) Now that I've had a chance to think about it, I came up with this (if you still want an actual compliment :-) ) Michael van der Galien's blog is a thoughtful look at American culture and politics from the perspective of an outsider who actually doesn't hate us. LOL, that about sums it up for me because it expresses the main thing that makes your blog unique, IMO. You have the ability to see events without the insider's bias that some of us have, and yet your point of view isn't one of anti-American bias as many foreign blogs have.
  6. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg lol thank you Christine, I will be sure to add it later today :D Of course, you all do realize that I was just joking and that I am making fun of the blogs that quote people like that, right? People often give me great compliments about my blog, however, strangely, those important people who greatly enjoy my blog wish to remain anonymous. Otherwise, I would quote them of course... lmao. Seriously: I like that - and yeah, I think that this is indeed what makes my blog different from most other blogs. I always say that one of the main 'strengths' of me is that I feel no loyalty to either American political party. Combine that with, indeed, not hating the US and it adds something to the blogosphere... I hope... I wish... I pray... I ... you get the picture.
    I think that these are two different groups of people: some of them get the fact that morality isn’t a dirty word while others are so concerned with their uber view of separation of church and state that they are repulsed by the very thought of ‘values’ having any place in the discussion.
    True. The problem with that kind of thinking, however, is that morality plays a role in every day life, and in politics. Whether they like it or not. Look at it this way: the Netherlands is one of the most secularized countries in the West. Yet, a few years ago, the CDA won the elections on a moral values platform. What does that tell you? I actually believe that the more secularized a country becomes, the more people will want morality to be discussed and play a role in politics.
  7. Posted by Jim Martin
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    Jim Martin Ah, and there you have it mvdg. We live in a collective society and we pay taxes to provide for common needs. It is the proper stewardship of that money that creates the problem Again, you aren't speaking of morals, you're speaking of redistribution of wealth. It's a case of looking out for yourself or working for society. You always hear the lament of the property owner speaking of how hard he works or how much taxes he pays, but seldom does he comment about how the system benefits him or how many tax dollars are heading his way. In this country it's the hard working farmer who takes it on the chin, but it's the farmer that collects more government money than anyone. The problem in this country is not morals, it's the lack of them.
  8. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg You're well on your way of becoming a conservative Jim. and no, distribution of wealth is to many people, at its very core, a moral point: they believe that wealth should be distributed because helping the poor is "the right thing to do." That is why conservatives are often labeled seflish or greedy by progressives.
  9. Posted by C Stanley
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    C Stanley Jim, I agree with the general sentiment that morals need to be genuine (I think that was your point in your closing sentence) but I don't get where you were going with the rest of your comment. "Working for society" is a socialist concept that simply doesn't work because it goes against human nature. People really are motivated by self interest, not collective interest of society. We can strive to create a bit more of a collective view, but it's not the natural state of things. So in practice, it works out better for everyone if each person is encouraged to work for his own benefit (for this to be the primary motivator) and then if each is also made to understand that there are collective needs to which he must contribute and there is also a small group of people who truly can't work for themselves and must be assisted.
  10. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg My problem with progressives, however, is that this little group you speak of, is suddenly 33% of society according to progressives. Besides that, I of course agree.
  11. Posted by Jim Martin
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    Jim Martin Michael What's with the epithets. I haven't called you a name. But we all have our conservative and liberal positions and hopefully you will fall somewhere around the middle. People that are always liberal or conservative are the ones that you have to wonder about. As to your last sentence it goes back to the farmer complaining about lazy welfare recipients but cashes his government check because he deserves it.
  12. Posted by C Stanley
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    C Stanley I agree with you there too, Michael- and the elephant in the room that we're not supposed to talk about is single motherhood and deadbeat dads, which is probably the single greatest reason for poverty today.
  13. Pingback | Link #5737
    What’s American Liberalism… Exactly? | The Moderate Voice [...] an interesting discussion about American Liberalism, I suggest going here. The post is based on this article at the New York Times, by Patricia Cohen. She writes that there [...]
  14. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg lol I'm not saying you did Jim, I'm speaking out of experience though. Anyway, I agree with you on that, but I oppose subsidizing farmers.
    the elephant in the room that we’re not supposed to talk about is single motherhood and deadbeat dads, which is probably the single greatest reason for poverty today.
    I agree, and I often do talk about it, which does not make my socialist friends and family members very happy. It is also about mentality: one sees it happening, especially in the US: quite some men seem to believe that it's perfectly fine to make a woman pregnant, and then to abandon her. This is a social problem, one that needs to be addressed by society.
  15. Posted by Jim Martin
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    Jim Martin The paying of taxes is socialist. The collective use of taxes is what makes our society work. Again, it is the stewardship of the taxes that counts. It goes against human nature not to aid the community. The image of the independent American carving a hard earned existence in spite of the government is nonsense. Everyone takes from society. It's human nature to deny it.
  16. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg Paying taxes isn't socialist at all. People paid taxes long before socialism was born. Might just as well say that paying taxes is conservative.
  17. Posted by C Stanley
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    C Stanley Well, Jim, the question is, what does society owe us: equality of opportunity or equality of outcome from our efforts?
  18. Posted by C Stanley
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    C Stanley Oh, and Michael: I did get the joke about the sidebar, that's what I meant when I said "if you still want an actual compliment". So don't feel obligated to post my compliment there if you want to leave the humor there instead.
  19. Posted by Jim Martin
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    Jim Martin If the collection of taxes is used for the redistribution of wealth then it is socialist and of course in the last 75 years that is one of the the purposes of it in this country. Why is it that conservatives are so opposed to taxes? A true conservative is just opposed to them. Fine. But todays social conservatives are opposed on their moral grounds of giving money to people they don't like or who they feel are lazy or unworthy. You've read it, the liberals say that the conservatives are using the war funding to starve the treasury so that there will no money left for social programs.
  20. Posted by C Stanley
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    C Stanley
    But todays social conservatives are opposed on their moral grounds of giving money to people they don’t like or who they feel are lazy or unworthy. You’ve read it, the liberals say that the conservatives are using the war funding to starve the treasury so that there will no money left for social programs.
    So because some liberals say that these are the true motivations of conservatives they must be correct? How is that any different from conservatives who say that the liberals "want the terrorists to win" because they disagree about the war? People on both sides need to stop attributing false motive to the people who hold different views.
  21. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg Amen Sister Christine.
  22. Posted by C Stanley
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    C Stanley Sing it, brother Michael! LOL Which reminds me that I need to go get ready for Mass so I'm off for now.
  23. Posted by Jim Martin
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    Jim Martin Well, Jim, the question is, what does society owe us: equality of opportunity or equality of outcome from our efforts Does pie in the sky taste like regular pie?
  24. Posted by Lthomas
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    Lthomas What Jim said does go to the heart of the matter though. Liberals became antiwar because they do believe that it takes money away from their social agendas and their social programs. The USA is broke. The Soviets will be radical Muslim in 50 years. By the year 2070 this world will have attained its limit of 8 billion souls that the worlds natural resources can maintain. By 2100 the world will fully enter a new iceage and turn 2/3rds of the world uninhabitable by other then a very few. In other words. The world is coming to an end. Not from a religious sense. There might be an armageddon but it will not be the result of a religious confrontation as much as it will be a confrontation to feed ones family. For this world to survive. Nations must shrink. Not expand. Mankind does not have the ability to do this on its own. Therefore Mother nature will do it for us. But the discussion has been fun. See you on the iceberg.
  25. Posted by stevesh
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    stevesh "Of all tyrannies a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C.S. Lewis Cuts the thread in both ways, doesn't it?
  26. Posted by Anselm
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    Anselm Indeed stevesh, it does cut both ways. Taxes are a necessary evil, but one side emphasizes the necessary aspect, the other side the evil aspect. And the rhetoric metastizes from there.
  27. Posted by mikkel
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5765
    mikkel I strongly disagree that Liberals need to talk more about "morals" because I know what this would actually cause...well what it already causes but would get worse. The problem is that morals are always treated as absolutes. If you make "we should help poor people" and "the government is the solution" as moral values then anyone that disagrees is automatically immoral and therefore "evil." This is similar to conservatives deciding the opposite and losing all perspective, including support for policies that on their face have less governance but in practice are much more expensive and require more government. To me the key is to look at everything pragmatically while recognizing that people are driven primarily through morals. This means learning enough about all the various groups to know how to couch your proposals in their mindset, and realizing that there will be ad hoc coalitions around specific issues. On [chronic] poverty [a lot of poverty is situational, e.g. someone lost their job, but I think the issues should be treated separately because there are different root causes and different solutions], some people will be driven by sympathy or the belief that everyone is equal, others by religious conviction and some because they have personally experienced its effects. A lot of other people won't care at all. For these people, we should try to convince them to work towards lessening poverty from a selfish perspective: the increase in stability (both security and economic) and opportunities that will eventually come, which will allow for a large decrease in government size. Before even coming up with proposals for tackling any large societal subject, I think our leaders should try to get 70-80% of the population to actually agree to be open to change and work in the same direction. Then instead of multiple single-minded proposals being instantly put forth and having everyone argue, we could try you know -- talking. The worst thing about "morals" in politics is that people confuse the ideological foundation with the policy. Most people I've talked to literally think that "wealth redistribution" is inherently moral or immoral without even backing up and recognizing that it is supposed to be a tool to tackle poverty. Wealth redistribution as an ends doesn't accomplish its goals. It makes most people develop a dependency. This is just a fact, both statistically, societally (look at Europe) and anecdotally (talking to people that grew up in the environment). However, a little bit of welfare for someone that is driven but has fallen on hard times can work wonders. I think the real key to tackling poverty is to get people to be self-sufficient (and actually talk to them and realize that the vast majority want to be as a matter of personal pride). Any honest assessment needs to recognize that a lot of people don't know how or are unable to become self-sufficient on their own and need help. I've rambled incoherently long enough, but my point is that the solutions require that we stop painting problems with a broad brushstroke. Our policies need to help the people that are determined to have a better life (or dreamt of it but became downtrodden and would try again) because a small helping hand is enough for them a lot of the time. EVERY side is partially right, but the answer is really a holistic combination of all the ideas. Each individual ingredient can certainly be derived from a moral base, and this should be embraced more, but the actual end product needs to reflect pragmatism on both a hard data level and the openness to tweak the policy to incorporate the wisdom of all sides.
  28. Pingback | Link #5767
    Democratic Convention Party Political Local Advertising Presidential Campaigns » Blog Archive » I am a Liberal - ‘Proclaiming Liberalism, and What It Now Means’ [...] MVDG today, Michael asks, “what kind of morals do liberals believe in and what kind of morals should the government [...]
  29. Posted by Pamela
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5768
    Pamela "Patricia answers my question(s) at The Democratic Daily." Hi Michael It's Pamela at The Democratic Daily... I think there's a lot of liberals that can identify with the basic crux of JFK's liberalism and many conservatives as well. We really do need to get past the lock hold on who's got the better values.
  30. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg Pamela: I'm terribly sorry for that, will edit it immediately. The ironic thing? Yesterday I went over to a blog that linked to me, explaining that they wrote my name wrongly. Heh.
  31. Posted by Ron Chusid
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5772
    Ron Chusid Michael, I also address these issues in detail at Liberal Values. It is primarily a discussion of the meaning of liberalism stemming from the NY Times article. I did add a quick link back here with regards to the question of values for those interested in another look at that aspect. My post is at: http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=1625
  32. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg Ron: yes I saw your post earlier today. Thanks for the link of course. I have added a link to your great essay in the post - however, I will come back at this issue tomorrow. I will react to your, Pamela's and Libby's posts.
  33. Posted by Ron Chusid
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5776
    Ron Chusid Michael, Thanks for the link. If you are going to react to my post later, I should note that I cheated a bit and added a few lines. Normally I would have added an update, but in this case I had various additional thoughts to add to a variety of points, and it reads much better with the additions in the body as opposed to adding random thoughts at the end.
  34. Posted by mvdg
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    mvdg Ron: ha, no problem of course. I am looking forward to continuing this debate / exchange. It's a highly interesting one.
  35. Posted by Pamela
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5780
    Pamela Thanks Michael. It's odd I have been called Patricia a few times here in the blogosphere and I actually have an older sister bt that name. On the subject of the discussion, I look forward to hearing more from you on this. People who are quick to judge others and insist their view is the only view tend to fall into the "conservative" category for me. I look at "liberals" as being more open-minded but not by any stretch of the imagination being lacking in morals. People who lack in morals can be found on both of the political ideological spectrums, IMHO.
  36. Posted by C Stanley
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    C Stanley Mikkel, I see your point about the morality discussion. I guess to some extent I just think it's dishonest (though not always intentionally so) for some liberal/progressives to have an agenda that IS based on moral values of equality but they refuse to see it as such or discuss it as such. Also, I think a related but perhaps somewhat separate issue is that secular progressives could (IMO) earn more trust and acceptance if they would speak in terms of values that they might have in commmon with Christians/religious people. It's the lack of that shared identity that sometimes fuels the division, and while I personally don't presume that a secular person is immoral or even amoral, there are some people who have that bias. In other words, we're probably more alike than many people in each group might think, and talking about the values issues might help folks work toward common goals.
  37. Posted by Jim Martin
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    Jim Martin Let me get this straight. It's dishonest for a liberal to have an agenda based on a moral belief without calling it that? And a person that would call himself secular (your term) would be unable to have a moral position without labeling it to your satisfaction? In addition, it would be incumbent on a secular progressive to try to open a dialogue with religious people to gain acceptance. Is there some reason a good Christian wouldn't be able to seek common ground with another American who doesn't share their beliefs? Is there any way a christian would compromise toward a liberal position? You state you don't personally believe that a secular person is immoral but other people do. That is surely enlightened thinking, but I know quite a few so-called religious people who are most assuredly immoral and amoral. These labels you are using are just terms usually employed by the right to establish some moral authority. There is no evidence that they have achieved any. I think the idea that a professed Christian or their candidate has a monopoly on morality is ludicrous.
  38. Posted by oldcodger
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    oldcodger It is interesting to see the new words being bandied about by the liberal side of the equation to attempt to beat around the Morals bush. Pragmatism, Realism. However I have to commend the Democratic strategists for taking on the Morals, Family values issues while the Republicans have somehow managed to have themselves painted as corrupt and with no morals or values. Yet here they set saying coyly, but we are all moral yet the implications are very real. It is a direct attempt at taking on more of the base of the Republican party by continuing to paint them as corrupt and immoral. Kudos for them. If it works the problem they will face is that the Abortion Crowd, Gay rights crowd cannot abide Religion and if the Left Embraces The Religious Right then where is the bastion going to run too? Mabey to Rudi who is espousing Gay rights, Abortion rights and gun control. Not ruling out tax cuts. He is the perfect democrat for the White House. The liberals must ask themselves one question. Not from a philosophical standpoint but from a pragmatic stand point. Do they really feel like they can embrace all of these views in one comprehensive package? If so then go for it. This should be quite interesting to write about for the next 2 years.
  39. Posted by lthomas
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    lthomas I think the idea that a professed Christian or their candidate has a monopoly on morality is ludicrous. Always lost in the conversation is the attempt by either side to explain their views adequately so that they can then have a foundation upon which to stand. The left has attempted in the last several years to embrace, Abortion, Gay rights and as such have turned to an increasingly secular stance on the constitution claiming that our nation should be "STRICTLY SECULAR" because it was written that way. This has been strongly perceived by the Religious right as an attack on their Beliefs and their values and most importantly their Traditions which conservatives hold near and dear. The Left cannot see this and therefore they maintain that the constitution is on their side. In effect they have not even attempted to take the moral high ground rather they have attempted to force their agenda upon the Right by the rule of Law. Conservatives led by the Religious right have rejected this notion because while it is true that the Constitution did in fact ordain the separation of church and state, no where does it say that our nation was not founded on religious principals and conservative values or that traditions are important to the health and well being of the nation. But the attack from the left on the one bastion of hope that conservatives can fall back on is under constant and incessant attack by a Liberal base that wants to BAN religion from having any impact in America. This attack is perceived as an effort to force upon America an agenda it is not willing to accept. A social and moral agenda as defined by the Liberals and not defined by ALL of America. It is here that the moral battle began. The right sees this as a moral assault on their beliefs. The left does not see this as an assault but rather a strict adherence to what may or may not have been the intention of the founding fathers. STRICT separation of church and state. It is here in this simple context that lies complex issues of morality that neither side hold high ground on but that both sides in a desperate attempt to maintain superiority and to win elections claims they have acheived the high ground. This is the foundation upon which this debate rages.
  40. Posted by Jim Martin
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5791
    Jim Martin The discussion I'm involved in is the ludicrous statement that only religious people can have a moral position. My positions are based upon American values. I'm sure that they are based upon religious foundation but are not overtly so. The right claims this moral high ground but does not practice it. As long as any elected conservative official maintains his adherence to be anti-abortion and against gays, then it doesn't matter what else he does. There is some evidence of that in play today in Washington.
  41. Posted by lthomas
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5793
    lthomas The discussion I’m involved in is the ludicrous statement that only religious people can have a moral position. That is precisely why I posted what I posted. The left claims no moral high ground. Never had until the last day or two and now I see them attempting to do so. However the debate has been about the Left attempting to take away from the right that which they hold very dear. The right responds by fighting back with "Well if you want to take away religion which is by nature based upon morality then you must be amoral or Immoral." The left has made very little attempt at countering this. The PERCEIVED reason??? Gay rights and Abortion are immoral activities. True or not is not the question Im debating here. This however is the perceptions that the left has given. The right claims them and the debate is on. The left uses the law and the constitution. The right uses traditions and conservative values to uphold their point of view. That is not true but neither side is throwing around the truth. They are using leverage to get votes and make no mistake this is about votes.
  42. Posted by Jim Martin
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5794
    Jim Martin I'll grant that abortion is immoral, I'll concede on traditional or Biblical grounds the gay rights issue, but what are the other moral positions of the morals voter? You keep hearing about putting God back into the government. What the heck does that mean? The Ten Commandments on the front lawn of the courthouse? You have a hard time claiming to be a values voter when you only have one or two values.
  43. Posted by Mikkel
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5796
    Mikkel Haha CS, see what happened after I posted is why I think couching things in terms of morals is counter productive. If you want some specifics I can go into it in more depth another time, but I'm arguing that fighting for equality doesn't have to be morals based. Sure it is for a lot of liberals and I think that's one reason why the movement is floundering. On some level I care about the plight of others, but it's pretty marginal. Yet I am a self identified "progressive" just because I think it works the best [of course most "progressives" probably wouldn't consider me as such since I'm pro-free market in most cases, and even think that a flat tax is more in line with progressive aims than the income tax] and find that I can do a reasonably good job of convincing most people to care about the same things I do but often from entirely different angles. If it were up to me I would avoid morality because I'm pretty amoral (ironically the people that care about such things also say I'm about the most moral person they know, as well as the most polite even though I don't believe in ettiquite) but I'm aware I can't. When I said they should avoid "morality" I meant that they should avoid saying that Liberal policies are "moral" (which I know is what they'd do) and instead focus on how the morals of others (especially the religious like you said) can help refine the policies.
  44. Posted by domajot
    | Quote | Trackback | Link #5799
    domajot I'll leave the political strategies to the strategistis, but from the angle of what's good for the country, labeling everything in terms of morals is terrible, IMO. It's no different than defining everything in terms of religion. It's not that religion or moral values are bad, by any means. Not at all. However, putting them in the forefront is very divisive. Policy decisions can be debated pragmatically on the basis of what's good for the country, and everyone then brings their own values and beliefs into the debate. Labeling the policy as a moral one, however, pits people one against the other from the start, and it becomes a contest of whose morals (in general, not just on a particular issue) are better and whose religious beliefs are better. Of all the labeling that the Right has succeeded in introducing into our language, it is the labeling in the area of morals and religion that has had the worst effect. "Traditional values' has now come to mean opposing gay rights and abortion, whereas in a logical world, the term would continue to have a much more inclusive meaning. It also shields the ones claining to support traditional values from an honest debate about the issues involved. Labeling, in general, reduces the language of debate to utter nonsense, because it serves to obfuscate and hide the real topic up for discussion. It's a cynical political tool and not much different from name calling. I would really love to see a return to debating each issure on its own terms, without the extra dimention of labeling. Sadly, I think I will see the opposite, because once a pernicious technique has been introduced, it's almost impossible to counteract the harm it has done without doing more of the same. Sad, Very sad.
  45. Pingback | Link #5800
    What's American Liberalism... Exactly: Part II? « Michael P.F. van der Galiën [...] 4th, 2007 by mvdg Yesterday, I published this post about American Liberalism. I linked to the post at TMV, writing: For an interesting discussion [...]